Ames Saints

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[lone gone]

Here is a link to a blog about a reunion held in Ames Ia in 2007.
There are updates, personal stories, many photos but not much information.

I enjoyed catching up on the little news  there was, and seeing some familiar faces. It appears that many who left Ames and the GC movement are doing well in other churches across the country and have no problems with GC now.

I hope by mentioning it here that it won't be taken down. I'd hate to see it go away. Many of these were my friends and my photo collection holds pictures from that era of many of these people.

www.amesreunion2007.com/

[puff of purple smoke]

It appears that many who left Ames and the GC movement are doing well in other churches across the country and have no problems with GC now.

That's because who encountered problems with GC were not welcome at said reunion.

[lone gone]

Are you speaking from personal knowledge? ( excluded from an invitation)

After leaving I was never bothered again. Until I found this site, I never publicaly spoke about GC, one way or the other. I dealt with my problems in private by God's help. I had mail contact with Ken and Cyndi Moore for a few years after I left.

I guess I wasn't a big enough fish to try netting again.

[wastedyearsthere]

I was invited by word of mouth to go to the Ames 07 reunion and declined going.  I was told that it was just to see and renew old friendships but not to talk about problems with the church (as if they could keep that from happening!)

[lone gone]

I read the posts on the reunion website and realized that there was an honest attempt by some to let bygones be bygones. The hurt ones stayed away. The healed ones decided for themselves. I'd have liked to been invited. Many of these people were followers like me.

 I do NOT think it was some misguided attempt to suck anyone back into their drama or to ignore any wrongdoing.

 If anyone is confidant in their own heart that God is for them no matter what, then facing their fears is a lot easier than one thinks.

If anyone is not willing to face their fears, then they will face a lifetime of fearing.

But it's OK either way. I choose to face them, say my peace, and leave the consequences to God.

[puff of purple smoke]

So did Bill Taylor get his invite?

[wastedyearsthere]

Who is Bill Taylor???

I think most of the "invites" were by word of mouth from what I could tell.

[Truth Lover]

It was basically word of mouth, via e-mail.  It was organized by Dan Lilly.  Bill Taylor was there.  And people were there who definitely had problems with GC and who are not in GC anymore.  It was just a time of fellowship with old Christian friends.  It was very encouraging according to someone I know who was there.

[Linda]

Bill Taylor was there.

Wow. That is wonderful.

So was Bill's "excommunication" ever renounced? Was there ever an apology made to him?

Or, does Mike Keator's declaration, "Bill is excommunicated from the universal Body of Christ. No Christian in any city on earth is to associate with him and we will warn Christians all over the world if we have any suspicion that Bill has communicated with them," still stand?

If his excommunication hasn't been renounced, then aren't all those who attended the Ames reunion in violation of Titus 3:10 and subject to excommunication themselves?;-)

For those who don't know, Bill Taylor was the first elder to be excommunicated. The letter of excommunication states in part, "Dear Brother Bill, In view of your repeated actions of party making--turning people away fromJim McCotter (as if that doesn't smack of sectarianism...I am of Apollos, I am of Paul, I am of McCotter--parenthesis is my comment) without scriptural justification and in an unscriptural manner...we have found it necessary to reject you according to Titus 3:9-11 and Romans 15: 17, 18.

Larry Pile's account of this event, in M2Z says that at an elders conference in Albuquerque in 1976, "Bill addressed the subject of truth and unity, saying that while unity is important, Scripture also speaks of the importance of truth. Bill stated further that the point can be reached where the pursuit of unity exceeds the pursuit of truth and thus becomes an invalid unity..."

It seems to me that Bill nailed it with his take on the truth/unity thing. GCx is to this day more about unity than truth, not in all areas, but in the areas of leadership and commitment to them.

[Truth Lover]

The unity and truth thing was definitely one major reason we left.  GC seemed to value unity around the Great Commission more than the Bible as a whole.  Also there was the relational unity that they said was so important.  Both of those are very important.  But unity around and in the truth is also very important.  So when the Bible would get in the way ~ when the young elders grew in their understanding of the Bible in deeper ways, when they began to get deeper and more accurate convictions and therefore knew they had to teach what the Bible said in order to please God ~ this became a problem.  That's why in the earlier days some of the main leaders had decided it would be best to not teach one way or another on certain doctrines.  They really did talk about this and said this.  Just ignore them altogether or go very lightly over the top of them.  There was never any real unity on some very important doctrines.  So when the younger and newer elders were appointed they basically didn't really know what they were getting into.  They were not told this.  They were not told "these are things we don't teach and here is why".  It was just zeal for the Gospel and love for the saints.  The third leg of the stool, doctrine, was very weak.  Loving God and His Word first and foremost and rightly dividing it and proclaiming it faithfully and fully was not encouraged and if you questioned them about certain doctrines or the depth of some doctrines you were not humble (to them) and you were causing the difficulty.  That's why GC continues to have so many problems ~ weak, shallow and errant doctrines.  So when some began to mature and dig deeper into Scripture they became a problem to the ones who did not want to learn and grow in their understanding of God's Word.  The eager learners were "messing up the unity" they were told.  That's why they discouraged people from listening to other teachers, especially really good Bible teachers.  I know of a very important meeting where someone quoted 1st Cor. 1:10 as important to true unity ~ doctrinal unity.  They then read an excellent commentary on that verse from a well respected and highly skilled expositor.  They were told that it didn't really mean doctrinal unity.  They were told that it meant just getting along with one another relationally. Then a very important national leader actually said "What is truth?"  He was basically mocking the others' desire for unity around the truth and quoted Pilate to do it!  That is very scary to hear coming from any professing Christian pastor.  Anyway, it is good to know that God's Word never fails ~ He will build His church ~ and He will sanctify us by His truth!  

"Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth."  John 17:17

"God will send forth His lovingkindness and His truth." Psalm 57:3c

"For Thy lovingkindness is great to the heavens, and Thy truth to the clouds."  Psalm 57:10

"Thou hast given a banner to those who fear Thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth."  Psalm 60:4

"But as for me, my prayer is to Thee, O LORD, at an acceptable time; O God, in the greatness of Thy lovingkindness, answer me with Thy saving truth."  Psalm 69:13

"For His lovingkindness is great toward us, and the truth of the LORD is everlasting.  Praise the LORD!"  Psalm 117:2

"Let him who has My Word speak My word in truth." Jeremiah 23:28b

"Is not My word like fire? declares the LORD, and like a hammer which shatters a rock?"  Jeremiah 23:29

"To this one I will look, to him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word."  Isaiah 66:2c

"[Love] ...rejoices with the truth.." 1 Cor. 13:6b

"I have not concealed Thy lovingkindness and Thy truth from the great congregation."  Psalm 40:10c

"...I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God"  Acts 20:20

"And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified."  Acts 20:32

"Thy lovingkindness and Thy truth will continually preserve me."  Psalm 40:11b

"The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; which abides in us and will be with us forever:  grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.  I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father."

[newcreature]

I discovered a renewed interest in A. W. Tozer this year. During the summer I found this quote about unity in his book "The Pursuit of God":

"Has it ever occurred to you that one hundred pianos all tuned to the same [tuning] fork are automatically tuned to each other? They are of one accord by being tuned, not to each other, but to another standard to which each one must individually bow. So one hundred worshippers met together, each one looking away to Christ, are in heart nearer to each other than they could possibly be were they to become "unity" conscious and turn their eyes away from God to strive for closer fellowship."

Tonight I read this excerpt in another book of his called "Man - The Dwelling Place of God" (This book is now online, and the excerpt is in chapter 19 where he is discussing a statement in the Apostles' Creed: "I believe in the communion of saints.")
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/tozer/5j00.0010/5j00.0010.19.htm

"We have said that the communion of saints is a fellowship, a sharing in certain divinely given things by divinely called persons. Now, what are those things?

The first and most important is life-"the life of God in the soul of man," to borrow a phrase from Henry Scougal. This life is the basis of everything else which is given and shared. And that life is nothing else than God Himself. It should be evident that there can be no true Christian sharing unless there is first an impartation of life. An organization and a name do not make a church. One hundred religious persons knit into a unity by careful organization do not constitute a church any more than eleven dead men make a football team. The first requisite is life, always.

The apostolic fellowship is also a fellowship of truth. The inclusiveness of the fellowship must always be held along with the exclusiveness of it. Truth brings into its gracious circle all who admit and accept the Bible as the source of all truth and the Son of God as the Saviour of men. But there dare be no weak compromise with the facts, no sentimental mouthing of the old phrases: "We are all headed for the same place .... Each one is seeking in his own way to please the Father and make heaven his home." The truth makes men free, and the truth will bind and loose, will open and shut, will include and exclude at its high will without respect to persons. To reject or deny the truth of the Word is to exclude ourselves from the apostolic communion.

Now, someone may ask, "What is the truth of which you speak? Is my fate to depend upon Baptist truth or Presbyterian truth or Anglican truth, or all of these or none of these? To know the communion of saints must I believe in Calvinism or Armimanism? In the Congregational or the Episcopal form of church government? Must I interpret prophecy in accord with the pre-millenarians or the post-millenarians? Must I believe in immersion or sprinkling or pouring?" The answer to all this is easy. The confusion is only apparent, not actual."

(Click the url if you want to read the rest of the chapter, or  even the whole book.)

[ustawannabee]

I was there, I thought there was a mix of former and current, (I had to leave early because I was doing some babysitting,) and some of the former ones are still: not bitter but  definitely not all OK either.

I was neither sorry nor glad that I went. I wouldnt go to another one. I hear some people say that they miss the friendships that they had then. I guess I just didnt form that many because the ones I have now (from that time) are all formers.

[BTDT]

I hear some people say that they miss the friendships that they had then. I guess I just didnt form that many because the ones I have now (from that time) are all formers.

I have a friend who comes from a similar church background as I do -- not GC, but definitely "TACO-esque", if you will.  She told me that they had similarly strong friendships, stronger than any she (or I) have today.  Maybe it's a "war buddies" sort of thing, or youth, or . 

Most of my closest old-GC friends are also formers, but a few are still "currenters".  I think they're the reason I keep anonymity here -- I don't want to hurt their feelings with anything I write in a forum.

[rabi]

I hear that Mark Darling is speaking at Epicenter tonight. I've heard some good messages from Mark but I've also heard some weird ones and I've heard of some disturbing ones. I wonder which he'll be giving tonight. Anybody there or listened to it?