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Author Topic: A Questioning Memeber...  (Read 12476 times)
Lost Creature
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« on: November 03, 2018, 06:39:05 am »

I am a current member of a GCM church.
I have grown up as part of the 2nd generation of this movement, as the child of a 1st generation "world changer."
My church family has been all I've known and all I've ever truly aspired to be a part of...

But as I have grown older and worked at a few jobs that have given me less time to be a part of the movement, I am seeing some things that are concerning...
3 years ago, I don't think I ever would've even thought to wander into these forums.
I was that person who defended my church family no matter what and would try to bring back those who had "fallen away."
But after the 2016 elections...after not going to church for almost a year due to a job that forced me to work weekends...I am seeing things that I didn't see before...

I still see my church family...people that I love and I know love me...I see them trying to live out The Great Commission in a way that I believe truly follows the heart of God...I am seeing many question things they used to stand for...and making our individual church more focused on Christ instead of blind unity...

...But there are many more things I am concerned with:

- Our college ministry has grown significantly in the last 10 years. Many people who are actively apart of this group are so "on fire for God" that when they graduate, they struggle with wanting to leave and feel like they are missing out on something special if they are not actively apart of the group. The group leaders are attempting to make active steps to make sure alumni understand that this isn't a "hang out" and that, while they are welcome to visit every now and then, they need to be involved as a leader or volunteer to participate. The problem with this aspect is that it doesn't address the issues that the ministry doesn't realize it brings up. The leaders in this group are so passionate about their mission and their calling, others feel like if they are not doing some kind of ministry after this that they are failing as a Christian...that's definitely how I have felt after I graduated...

- Politically, my church is made up of mostly moderate conservatives and right-leaning independents. That being said, our leaders often speak jargon that is often familiar to Conservative Christians that may be considered offensive to those who are not conservatives. Anyone who considers themselves liberal usually says nothing. The good news is, we rarely talk about politics. The bad news is, we rarely talk about the things that are going on in the world. The mass shootings, the rise of white supremacy, and even local issues. When I have asked our leaders about this, they often say, "If we were to take a moment to discuss these things every time they happen, that's all we'd ever do, since they happen every week." Whenever an issue is raised like this, unity is often the first thing that is talked about. The problem is that it is unity of thought and not of the body. For many of the leaders, unity of the church means questioning politicians or a political party are off limits because it is not the focus of our mission and may cause more harm than good through division. And I get where they are coming from. I really do...I just wish we could do better at addressing the issue more directly and from a biblical standpoint, instead of insisting on unity every time a valid point is raised.

-Within a 1 mile radius of our church, there are 8-10 other churches. We only have a (passive) relationship with 1 of them. We are a predominantly white congregation in a mostly minority neighborhood. When our church started, most of our members came from the surrounding church neighborhood. But as nearby schools became "worse," members moved out into the country for "better" schools. Only a handful of families live in the church members live in the church neighborhood, while everyone else lives within a 30 minute radius.

- Those who are not actively involved with the church who go regularly often feel left out or feel like they are missing out on something. While the majority of the church is involved in at least one ministry (if not more), those who can't participate outside of Sunday service due to their current work shift or other issues often feel out of the loop or forgotten. Those who struggle socially or have mental illnesses, while accepted, often feel like they are told to be more involved. For members that experience anxiety and depression that lasts more than a season, they often struggle with feeling like they are not spiritual enough and often fall deeper into that depression.

- Dating culture here is a tough one. While many young adults in our church have gotten married or are starting relationships with other members, there is still a very "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" expectation with them. The expectation when two members date or court is that they will be together for the long run. This leads to an added pressure that few can handle. Members often get married within a year of their relationship starting, leaving a pressure on those whose relationship is longer due to life situations (school, job, etc). Speaking of work, when young men want to get married, they often ask their pastor for advice before jumping in. The pastor's often say wait (usually for good reason), but when asked for "the next step" usually tell the young men that they need to get a job that can provide for themselves and for a wife (if they don't already have one). This often leads to the more desperate young men trying to get a high paying job as quick as possible, which leads to more stress and more disappointment for many.

- Growing up, I had very implicit thoughts about my identity in the church that I don't remember being preached, but somehow I experienced them. I thought we were better than other churches and other ministries, often seeing the whole thing as a competition. I often grew frustrated with other members who weren't as "committed" as my family or myself; I believed they were complacent and lost in their faith. I saw anyone who questioned my faith, my church, or my family as a personal attack. I thought that I would experience persecution for being a Christian when I went to college...boy, was i confused when that didn't happen and that when it did happen I was often defended by classmates and/or professors who weren't Christians...

There are also good things that I believe are church is getting better at:
- Members are encouraged to lead groups, classes, and clubs that are meant to benefit the church and the community (economics class, knitting club, etc)
- The church building is used by the neighborhood to host events and groups outside of our church (Neighborhood safety meetings, Scouts Club, etc)
- The older members are the most friendly and are in constant contact with each other. They also are the most friendly to newcomers and encourage the younger, more timid Christians to reach out to them.
- In times of crisis, members do reach out to each other and go out of their way to meet each other's needs.
- Members are encouraged to seek professional counselling, therapy, or emergency medical help as a appropriate to the need.
- While the church family is mostly white, there is a diversity of different personalities that are often encouraged to compliment each other instead of compete against each other.
- We are connected with other nearby GCX churches, many of whom are doing a better job at reaching out to the church's near them and thus, I believe, to be a good influence on us in that regard.

So...is GCX a cult?
I'm still on the fence about this...but, there is one thing I do know...there are some concerning things I've experienced as a life long member that I believe need to be addressed if this movement doesn't want to become another casualty of American Christianity.

I love these people and I don't want to see that happen...but I am afraid that it already has happened.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2018, 09:22:00 am »

Lost Creature,

You are blessed to have been raised by believing parents.  You have the advantage of understanding the importance of the Word of God, and the power of prayer.  You have likely experienced the Fellowship of the Spirit, and hopefully with other “brothers and sisters” in Christ.  You may have been part of helping others come to have a relationship with Christ.  These are all things that are precious.

Where the problem lies in GCx (GCC, GCI, GCM, GCAC, etc.) churches is that the personal relationship with Jesus gets pushed to the side; and the leaders come to take the place of personal guidance, leading, and decision-making.  Much manipulation through scripture out of context is placed upon members to guilt them into choosing against their own God-given desires and dreams.  The leaders have been, in many cases, duped by the founding “father”, McCotter, into accepting his supposed “supernatural vision” for God’s people.  He was so charismatic and “passionate” in expressing these, they were deceived into concluding, ‘It must be from God’.  Sadly, even after they discover the teachings were false, they feel trapped to stay because they sacrificed friends, family, education, and careers for the church organization; and assume they have nowhere to go, especially if they are GCx pastors.  

BUT, that is not true.  God still has plans for them, but likely is waiting for them to STEP OUT on FAITH.  They have been trained to be dependent on this VERY dysfunctional and harmful church organization, so it must be BY FAITH they STEP OUT and experience what HE has for them!

Below is a quote from one of the posters (who was asked to be a leader) here that describes his experience at one of the GCx churches.  Though, I personally believe that McCotter was/is evil.

The "leadership" attitude was arrogant, condescending, pompous, self-righteous, and outright filthy. When anyone brought up a reasonable point, they were immediately marginalized and told to sit down and shut up. The women were treated with such disrespect. ...Yes, they are hurting many believers -- however, I do not believe they know what damage they're causing nor do I think they are evil. I believe these "leaders" are misguided, confused, stubborn, and misinformed (and some very egotistical). ...Obedience to leadership was to be unquestioned. I was told directly, "if you find a conflict in your own study, just go with what the leader says (blindly)".
-boboso



Praying for You,
Janet
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 09:24:21 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2018, 09:50:41 am »

Lost Creature, I appreciate your desire to understand and improve your church. I truly wish you all the best. I have a lot of family and friends still in the movement, but I came to the realization that it was extremely unhealthy for me. I would not call it a cult, though I believe it was in the past. But it has significantly unhealthy patterns that have spanned decades that, in my opinion, go beyond 'normal' church problems. I have been a member of three churches since I left, and all of them had issues, but not in the same scope at all. I would recommend taking a step back to gain perspective, as I think it is hard to see some patterns (especially those of control/authoritarianism) when you are swimming in the water. May God give you clarity and grace.
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Cult Proof
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2018, 06:53:07 pm »

It might depend where you are in the country.  Two years ago Wellspring told me that they had recently received several letters from concerned members and that it appeared that MN, WI, and CO were particularly abusive.

I would call GCC a cult.  Not because of their doctrine although I do think they are far too legalistic and abusive towards women and children. I call them a cult because of the heavy use of mind control.  Please consider researching mind control the B.I.T.E. model.  You can decide for yourself what your experience has been.  Personally I would say my experience was heavily dominated by thought stopping techniques and the emotional control was particularly abusive.

I’ll be praying for you.
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Lost Creature
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 07:47:43 pm »

Thank you everyone for the welcome and for the advice.
Pray for me as I try to discover the truth...it's been hard to read these things...but it is so necessary for me to understand why these things have happened...

I would not call it a cult, though I believe it was in the past. But it has significantly unhealthy patterns that have spanned decades that, in my opinion, go beyond 'normal' church problems. I have been a member of three churches since I left, and all of them had issues, but not in the same scope at all. I would recommend taking a step back to gain perspective, as I think it is hard to see some patterns (especially those of control/authoritarianism) when you are swimming in the water. May God give you clarity and grace.

May I ask what the difference in these issues were among the 3 churches?

One reason I have not questioned myself and the things that didn't seem right was because I was under the impression that other churches struggled and even struggled worse then ours...and I wonder if maybe I was wrong about that...
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 09:22:09 pm »

Give yourself time to process all this new information, Lost Creature.  It is rather SHOCKING to take in.  And remember, this situation is not unique unfortunately.  There are numerous churches that have accepted abherrant doctrine from charismatic leaders who convinced them it was from God when it definitely was not.  This seems to come from a temptation to twist the scripture to hold onto followers rather than let the people follow Jesus. 

Asking God to make sense of it for you will bring you even closer to him.  Asking Him to lead you as to how to proceed may be different than how others have.  I have a feeling a new opportunity awaits you. We will be praying for you.

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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 05:45:23 pm »

Lost Creature, the issues I have experienced with churches since leaving GCC were things like a lack of member commitment or not agreeing with a Sunday school curriculum or having a personality difference with someone. In GCC I felt unable to make my own life choices - only a few paths were legitimate Christian choices. (No one has ever tried to control my choices since leaving). I also have experienced unconditional acceptance and love. Church members have not had an agenda for me. I experienced freedom and grace, rather than legalism and compulsion. I also have experienced pastors who do not care if I have my own views on things like the age of the earth and do not insist on submission to them.
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 05:51:28 pm »

So, in short, the issues in other churches have been discreet, not systemic. They weren't related to long term problems with control, power or authoritarianism. And they weren't connected to the experience of core doctrine, including grace. My handle here is Free in Christ, because I didn't experience that freedom truly until I rejected the claims of that church on me.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 07:43:21 pm »

How profoundly true your last statement is.

”My handle here is Free in Christ, because I didn't experience that freedom truly until I rejected the claims of that church on me.”


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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2018, 09:40:46 pm »

Reading your testimony made me really sad. I'm in a similar situation, and I'm in the thick of the actual "leaving portion". I'm experiencing something scarily close to depression, a general mistrust of authority and pain even in visiting other churches. Through all that, I am glad that I made the choice to leave. What it boils down to is this: what is best for my relationship with God?

As painful as it is, examining it through this lens brought me both clarity and peace even in the toughest moments of this process. I encourage you to keep asking good questions. Fight the good fight. Your allegiance is owed to Christ, and Christ alone.
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Ned_Flanders
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 02:26:42 pm »

Lost Creature,

You might be interested in this book.  God bless.

https://www.amazon.com/Great-Awakening-Reviving-Politics-Post-Religious/dp/B002FTANWY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1542403527&sr=8-2&keywords=the+great+awakening+jim+wallis
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Lost Creature
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2018, 07:10:23 pm »

Reading your testimony made me really sad. I'm in a similar situation, and I'm in the thick of the actual "leaving portion". I'm experiencing something scarily close to depression, a general mistrust of authority and pain even in visiting other churches. Through all that, I am glad that I made the choice to leave. What it boils down to is this: what is best for my relationship with God?

As painful as it is, examining it through this lens brought me both clarity and peace even in the toughest moments of this process. I encourage you to keep asking good questions. Fight the good fight. Your allegiance is owed to Christ, and Christ alone.
Fly, wingless butterfly...I am sorry that my story made you sad...Godspeed on your journey and thank you for the encouragement.
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LostCreature2
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 07:19:01 pm »

So, I (Lost_Creature) am back (Couldn't remember the password for my old account)...
took a long break from this site, from looking into the history, from my church...from life in general...

But, now I am in a healthy place to return and continue whatever my journey...

So, where are things now?

While I believe that my church and the Great Commission Church Movement (or what's left of it)
has cult like elements (remaining from Jim McCotter's influence), I don't believe it is a full 100% cult...

This pandemic came at the right time...
As of this time, my wife and I will continue to be in touch with family and friends from the church,
but we will be going to a new church...it's scary and different, but I am ready to start again...

I want to move on...it's hard, but I am trying to take steps, learning to forgive, but also never forgetting the history of the church, both the good and the bad....

While I know we didn't always see eye to eye,
I want to thank you for sharing your stories and not giving up on the people of Great Commission Church...

Life is complicated...God is complicated...people are complicated...and I am learning to accept that...
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PietWowo
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2021, 10:16:52 pm »

So, I (Lost_Creature) am back (Couldn't remember the password for my old account)...
took a long break from this site, from looking into the history, from my church...from life in general...

But, now I am in a healthy place to return and continue whatever my journey...

So, where are things now?

While I believe that my church and the Great Commission Church Movement (or what's left of it)
has cult like elements (remaining from Jim McCotter's influence), I don't believe it is a full 100% cult...

This pandemic came at the right time...
As of this time, my wife and I will continue to be in touch with family and friends from the church,
but we will be going to a new church...it's scary and different, but I am ready to start again...

I want to move on...it's hard, but I am trying to take steps, learning to forgive, but also never forgetting the history of the church, both the good and the bad....

While I know we didn't always see eye to eye,
I want to thank you for sharing your stories and not giving up on the people of Great Commission Church...

Life is complicated...God is complicated...people are complicated...and I am learning to accept that...

I think the word "cult" is a very subjective term.... It all depends on the definition of a cult. And just because something has some similarities to a cult, that doesn't make it a cult. Just like we have four limbs and a cow has four limbs.... of course we are not cows....

So, this is my definition of a cult.
1. They need to believe in extra Biblical Revelation. (like the Book of Mormon for example).
2. They need to be religious.
3. They need to have a strong leader, who is seen as a prophet, or intermediary between God and them.... (not talking about Jesus Christ).
4. They need to claim to be the only true group...

If I take these qualifications, GCx was never a cult.

1. They didn't have extra Biblical revelation. Only the Bible. Yes, they might have been strong in their counsel, but they would have never gone so far as to say that their words were God's very Words... I've gotten and given very strong counsel.... I've never gotten that message. Now, when they or I quoted the Scriptures, they would say: "This is what God says" but then it was based on God's Word the Bible.

2. Depending on one's definition of religious, they were religious.... They only reason, I bring this up, is because I've heard of some businesses which were called cults. Like IBM, Amway, etc... Now there is a very strong commitment involved, but they could never be cults. Besides that, people in those groups have a lot of different types of religious beliefs, like anything from atheism to Evangelicals to hindus to mormons.

3. Yes, Jim McCotter was a strong leader. But he never claimed to be THE prophet or so of God. As a matter of fact, I heard him myself say that he hoped that if people started looking up to him as some divine leader or so, that the entire movement would fall. A cult leader wouldn't say something like that. They also wouldn't encourage people to check out the Word of God for themselves. Jim taught plurality of elders. Most Evangelical churches have Senior pastors. Jim taught against that.

4. GCx never claimed to be the only true group. As a matter, they taught that we can learn from other believers, even though they might not even agree to their vision of reaching the entire world with the Gospel. A good message, if you can get a hold of to show this all is God's Will for your life. IV.  They talk about that extensively. As a matter of fact Jim McCotter taught this series.

At most you can say is that GCx tended to be heavy handed in their counsel... and that they wanted a high level of accountability and commitment.  That's not enough to make it into a cult...  Maybe some things that some cults have too.... but again remember the illustration of us and a cow...
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« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2021, 07:02:52 pm »

While I believe that my church and the Great Commission Church Movement (or what's left of it) has cult like elements (remaining from Jim McCotter's influence), I don't believe it is a full 100% cult...

I agree.

I'm glad you're in a better place now. As for what's going on, I'm not keeping close tabs on the movement these days because there's so much else going on. Maybe someone else here will be able to answer you. Although, to be honest, I think most of us are pretty distracted at the moment with national events.

Wishing you and your family well. I think everyone's faith is about to be tested.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2021, 09:13:13 pm »

I am very glad also, LostCreature, that you are bravely taking steps forward in your journey of faith.  It is scary at first.  The differences are hard to feel comfortable with in the beginning.  It will get easier.  

I also agree, LostCreature, that the Great Commision Church Movement was not a full 100% Cult.  It did teach the Truth that one must be reconciled to God through Christ’s payment on the cross for their sin by personally accepting Him to come live in them.  

It was what the many GCC “Movement” teachings taught their members to do, think, and trust after they accepted Christ that was false.  What some might refer to as the practice of Christianity, rather the evangelical preaching of it.  Though a Cult in the traditional Christian sense is one that denies the deity of Jesus Christ and the need of him for salvation to eternal life; some have labeled spiritually abusive Christian churches as Christian Cults.  

I also agree that these harmful teachings originated with Jim McCotter, and very sadly remained after he left.  



« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 08:44:09 am by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2021, 09:29:22 pm »


Here is a helpful excerpt from the article, “What Is a Cult? The 6 Telltale Signs to Look For” from Crosswalk.  (Highlighting mine.)  It summarizes the practices or methods of a Cult.  These are the things embedded by its authoritarian and often deceptive founder, McCotter.


Fifth, cults use devious methods to trap, deceive, and control their followers.

In an article entitled "The Power Abusers," Ronald Enroth demonstrates some of the tools used by cults to control their members:

Behavior Control: An individual’s associations, living arrangements, food, clothing, sleeping habits, finances, etc., are strictly controlled

Information Control: Cult leaders deliberately withhold or distort information, lie, propagandize, and limit access to other sources of information

Thought Control: Cult leaders use loaded words and language, discourage critical thinking, bar any speech critical of cult leaders or policies, and teach an “us vs. everyone else” doctrine

Emotional Control: Leaders manipulate their followers via fear (including the fear of losing salvation, and the fear of being shunned, etc.)


-From the link:  

https://www.crosswalk.com/church/pastors-or-leadership/ask-roger/what-is-a-cult-the-6-telltale-signs-to-look-for.html


« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 09:37:53 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2021, 09:30:39 pm »

I am very glad also, LostCreature, that you are bravely taking steps forward in your journey of life and faith.  It is scary at first.  The differences are hard to feel comfortable with in the beginning.  It will get easier.  

I also agree, LostCreature2, that the Great Commision Church Movement was not a full 100% Cult.  It did teach the Truth that one must be reconciled to God through Christ’s payment on the cross for their sin by personally accepting Him to come live in them.  

It was what the many GCC “Movement” teachings taught their members to do, think, and trust after they accepted Christ that was false.  What some might refer to as the practice of Christianity, rather the evangelical preaching of it.  Though a Cult in the traditional Christian sense is one that denies the deity of Jesus Christ and the need of him for salvation to eternal life; some have labeled spiritually abusive Christian churches as Christian Cults.  

I also agree that these harmful teachings originated with Jim McCotter, and very sadly remained after he left.  





Another way that you can recognize a cult is that they will be totally seperate from other Evangelicals, something that GCx is obviously not. As a matter of fact, John Hopler encouraged the pastors of the former GCx churches, since their breakup to go and develop relationships with other Evangelical churches. And for at least the last 30 years, GCx was much involved with other Evangelical churches. For instance in the campus churches, they would meet together with Campus Crusade (now Crew), the Navigators, Intervarsity, etc... Cults don't do that...  You won't see the Hare Krishnas do that... Examples of cults are: Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Moonies, Children of God, Hare Krishnas, etc....  No Evangelical church falls within this. Though I've seen a lot of Evangelical churches do a lot of stupid things. In South America for instance, Evangelical churches are a lot more heavy handed on their members, than in the USA. Yes, far more heavy handed than any GCx church. These South American churches couldn't get away with the stuff in the US that they do in the South America countries. So, it's very cultural too.... But I wouldn't consider them cults. And Janeth as you pointed out, GCx did share the Gospel. And for that I'm very thankful. And Paul would have been very thankful. Read Philippians 1:13-20.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2021, 09:36:35 pm »



Here is a helpful excerpt from the article, “What Is a Cult? The 6 Telltale Signs to Look For” from Crosswalk.  (Highlighting mine.)  It summarizes the practices or methods of a Cult.


Fifth, cults use devious methods to trap, deceive, and control their followers.

In an article entitled "The Power Abusers," Ronald Enroth demonstrates some of the tools used by cults to control their members:

Behavior Control: An individual’s associations, living arrangements, food, clothing, sleeping habits, finances, etc., are strictly controlled

Information Control: Cult leaders deliberately withhold or distort information, lie, propagandize, and limit access to other sources of information

Thought Control: Cult leaders use loaded words and language, discourage critical thinking, bar any speech critical of cult leaders or policies, and teach an “us vs. everyone else” doctrine

Emotional Control: Leaders manipulate their followers via fear (including the fear of losing salvation, and the fear of being shunned, etc.)


-From the link: 

https://www.crosswalk.com/church/pastors-or-leadership/ask-roger/what-is-a-cult-the-6-telltale-signs-to-look-for.html




Those are definitely heavy handed techniques. I could probably take 90% of all of the churches in the world and put them on some level on the scales as to whether they do that. If you have a narcissistic pastor, you would get a lot more of that.... But you could find that in big giant main denominational churches.  Generally those qualities are always present in a cult. But those qualities are also found in a lot of churches that aren't cults.... Here is a question: Would you consider a roman catholic church to be a cult?  Would you consider the prosperity gospel churches to be cults?
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2021, 10:20:44 pm »

Hope you don’t mind I put a little personal note for other former members here since the GCx summation video was brought up on this thread.

I personally would not recommend watching the Jubilee video because it brings back all the false humility and pretense we witnessed for so many years.  It could be a BIG Trigger for victims of its abuse.  Honoring the wolf among them.  No genuine or heartfelt apology.  It’s so disheartening and discouraging.


« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 10:34:02 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
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