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Author Topic: Instant Friends, Just Add Jesus  (Read 6816 times)
nutrichuckles93
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« on: October 07, 2016, 01:38:50 pm »

Hello all. I have been searching the internet looking for a place to post my feelings freely without judgment. I am not confident enough to confide in my church friends about my questionings and unbelief because I am not certain it will go well based on testimonies I've read on this and other sites. I am terrified that my friendships with them is entirely dependent on whether or not I am as deeply in Jesus as they are. I am hoping this testimony will not be long-winded, but please bear with me if I am.

I currently attend a GCC church (since February 2015), and it's the only church I've attended in my whole life. My parents grew up in separate Lutheran churches in the Midwest, but separated from the faith before or shortly after I was born. My mother still considers herself a non-practicing Christian, but she rarely talks about it. Through my school years, I never gave any religion much thought. I was firmly agnostic, that a god could not be definitively proven but that one could never say with any certainty that it was impossible. I figured others could believe what they wanted as long as they weren't antagonistic towards others who didn't believe the same.

I went to college for one year (2012-2013) after graduating high school but dropped out, realizing I didn't know what to do with a writing major and not having other interests. I went into the workforce and moved out of my parents' home in November 2014. Two months later in January 2015, I met a guy at my workplace (whom I'll refer to as Sam for privacy).

I had seen Sam around the workplace before, but never had we crossed paths or interacted before, nor did I know his name. But he turned out to be very friendly and enthusiastic about knowing others. I tended to roll the opposite way: in high school, I mostly only hung out around the same group of five or six guys; and after high school, I didn't pick up any new friends other than acquaintances at work. Sam went to a local university (the same one I attended two years prior) and asked me if I wanted to come over to his dorm the next night to hang out with him and his friends.
I was slightly weary, seeing as I had known this guy all of five minutes, but ultimately agreed after exchanging phone numbers. I figured getting out of my apartment on a weeknight would do me some good. See, my girlfriend of 1 1/2 years (as of that date) went to a different college two hours away, so I only saw her on weekends.

So the next night, I went to his dorm. I kind of hid towards the back of the room, surprised by the 25-30 people fit in that guys' dorm. I figured this guy was very popular and/or good with the ladies. Except there was no alcohol or music, just sandwiches and conversations. Then I noticed a giant "JESUS SAVES" banner across the wall above one of their couches. I immediately realized I was in the wrong place. Not because I had anything against religion. I mostly never concerned myself with the subject. But because I knew these people would quickly realize I wasn't a Christian and that I didn't belong in their company.

I planned on leaving that night and never returning. But as we were leaving (I was there the longest 20 minutes of my life), Sam pulled me aside to ask me if I had ever read the Bible before. I told him I had never opened the text. I vaguely knew of the names Jesus, Moses, and Noah through movies, but otherwise that was it. He then asked if I would be interested in doing a Bible study with him. Without thinking, I said yes. I figured this would be like high school or my one-year college stint whenever I tried to expand my social horizon. People would always say we should hang out sometime, but then nothing would ever come of it. I figured this would be the same case.

But it wasn't. From that day, Sam made a point to talk to me every day at work like we were already buddies. Which felt really nice. Most of my high school friends no longer lived in town, so I only saw them in the summer. I did a couple Bible studies with him and attended the Wednesday service that week on campus of the Christian student group he was a member of. He was also apparently a leader in the group. Overall, I really liked this guy and the instant friendship he kind of gave me.

Less than three weeks after meeting Sam, we sat down to do the sinner's prayer Bible study. The study prompted me to decide if I wanted to ask Jesus into my heart to be saved. I decided to do so, as I understood what I was reading and what the consequences of choosing otherwise was (burning in hell for eternity). I wonder why so many people had such a problem with Christianity. These were just good people who wanted others to experience the peace and joy and salvation that they would.

Over the next few months, I felt on fire for this new church I was a part of. I had never experienced anything like it. Everybody was so nice and eager to know everybody. I got to know some of the other guys in the student ministry very well and became fast friends with them. I hung out at the main dorm almost every day after work until sleep doing all sorts of great things. Life groups one night, Wednesday night sermon the other (I was welcome even though I wasn't a student), Bible studies every week, party/board game nights each weekend. Learning to play volleyball was my favorite. It was incredible, and I was so happy to be actively social for what felt like the first time in my life. I was baptized at the end of March and just couldn't believe how wonderful my life had gotten.

Two issues came up around April/May 2015.

1. My girlfriend (who I'll refer to as McKenzie for privacy) was graduating college that month, and was planning on moving in with me that summer. When I voiced this to Sam, he mostly expressed discouragement. I couldn't figure out another way to do things though. I wasn't making enough money to continue living in my apartment without her income as well, and since we didn't ever see ourselves splitting up and we loved each other, we figured we were gonna live together at some point. I should mention that by this time, McKenzie had joined my church and become saved and baptized as well. She was eager to be a part of all this. Eventually, I finally decided that we should not move in together, but that she should move in with some of the student ministry girls and I would somehow figure out what to do if I wasn't evicted first. Thankfully, a situation with some male working singles in the church opened up, and I moved in with them. And I was able to cancel my lease early by simply paying a fee. This is always what I get referred back to by people when I express fear that God can't pull through because I'm a worry wart. Ultimately, this did strengthen mine and McKenzie's relationship.

2. That summer, the leadership evangelism training program (LT) was being held at another GCC church about an hour down the interstate from my church. I really wanted to go, but couldn't really afford it and didn't want to deal with the hassle of driving back and forth every single day. Sam and the main pastor I had begun to associate with in the church (I'll call him Sullivan for privacy) both kind of encouraged me into it down the line. I honestly felt a little pushed into it, but was eager to be a part of the program.

I'm honestly surprised I survived that summer. Getting up at 4am in the LT city to go to work at 6am in my home city, working til 12-1pm, quiet time in my apartment in the afternoon, driving to the LT city at 5pm for a 6:30 dinner and sermon, staying up until 11pm-12am chatting spiritually with bros on the basement floor we slept on, and then all that again the next day. Over and over for nine weeks. But McKenzie and I didn't waver; we dug our heels in and did it. We both learned a lot that we wouldn't have otherwise, and I'm still very thankful for the experience.

The one problem was that I could not get past my fear of talking to strangers so that I could evangelize. Groups of us would go downtown and talk to random people about Jesus, and I always wandered off on my own, beating myself up because I felt like I was being shamed and didn't really love Jesus if I couldn't get past fear to preach his name.

In September 2015, after the new school year at the college started, Sullivan and I sat down to have a talk about legalism. I expressed how I felt like I wasn't a good enough Christian because I didn't pray or read as consistently as the others around me. He reassured me that I shouldn't expect so much of myself as I was still only a seven month old Christian. I felt relieved and like I could relax a little. Then the conversation took a turn.

Sullivan asked me about my relationship with McKenzie and where we planned on it going. I honestly wasn't sure how to respond, just that we would surely get married down the road, as we'd been together over two years at that point and didn't plan on stopping. I can't remember the specifics of the conversation, but I remember getting the feeling that Sullivan was essentially telling me that I either needed to break up with McKenzie and stop stringing her along, or marry her right then and there. I walked out of that room not sure what to think, other than that how dare this man have the gall to tell me to make such a drastic choice.

I explained this to McKenzie, and we ultimately agreed to stay together but to pray about our future more diligently than we currently did. As for myself, I prayed it over mostly as a formality. I knew in my heart that short of God smiting me down himself that McKenzie and my relationship would be however we wanted it to be. We loved each other deeply. We had obeyed and not moved in together before marriage; wasn't that enough?

In October, I sat down with Sullivan again, ready to discuss more about leading up to proposing marriage to McKenzie. She kind of knew it was on my mind now, but she wouldn't know the when until the day I asked her. Sullivan and my conversation went through the basics of the church's definition of a Godly husband: he needed to be sexually pure, he needed to be in the Word daily, he needed to obey the Lord, and he needed to be a sufficient enough provider so his wife could stay home with the children if she so desired.

I got the sense that if I didn't make what was determined to be the safe minimum amount of money to provide by myself that I would be refused the church's green light to propose and get married. So I stretched the truth in my favor. I made more money in 2014 than in 2015, so I gave Sullivan my higher numbers. Those numbers barely scraped the minimum the church preferred, but they did scrape it so I was given his green light to pursue a marriage with McKenzie.

I proposed in November and we set the wedding for July 2016. We have now been happily married for 2 1/2 months and I am fully satisfied with that part of my life.

Spiritually, I have fallen off. Throughout the winter as we began planning the wedding and I began gaining more hours at work, I started reading and praying and hanging out with church folks less due to the busyness of life. This exacerbated my feelings that I couldn't catch up with the college kids who were so on fire for Jesus in every aspect of their daily life. When I first joined, I had so much to contribute to discussion and everybody was so pleased with this new guy who had found Jesus and was so passionate about discovering everything he could.

Now, it had started to feel like a chore because I had to devote my time elsewhere. I felt like I was starting to see holes in logic and inconsistencies in the Bible, but it didn't feel like questions like that would be allowed. In May 2016, I stopped reading and praying altogether because the pressure was starting to become too much. I had so many questions about how this part of Christianity could be true when this part didn't make sense. I felt like both the existence and the nonexistence of God both had claims that were plausible if not outright true, but I knew both couldn't be correct. It doesn't feel safe to ask these questions because I feel like I keep getting the same non-answers from pastors, church friends, and speakers I've researched on YouTube.

I want to know what the truth is, but it feels impossible to get an unbiased opinion from either side. About six weeks ago, I met with Sullivan again about these struggles and he asked me outright if I thought I was truly born again. I ultimately said no. I said that 1 1/2 years ago when I met Sam, that I mostly became saved because it felt like it was what I had to do to keep being friends and hanging out with the group. Even though my salvation felt genuine for a while. He told me this feeling was okay, that there are pastors in hell right now who thought they were saved that wished someone had told them it was okay to say, "I don't know." He told me he'd keep praying for me and that he'd be there if I needed him.

I guess that's where I'm at right now. I don't know if Christianity or any religion is real or fake. I know more now than I did two years ago, but I know now that if I'm wrong and Christianity is the true God, that I won't have the ignorance card in my favor in front of Him anymore when I die.

I'm scared to come forward with more people about my doubts. I might be meeting with Sam soon to discuss my struggles in general terms. My college ministry friends have mostly fallen off since I got married. I realize that's likely a byproduct of joining a married couples life group, but it also feels too conveniently close to me not being on fire for God anymore to be a coincidence.

I have not experienced any of the cruelties expressed on this board, but some of the behaviors (dating rules in particular, the gossip pass) do sound familiar to me and I experienced them on a minor level.

I'm not posting on this forum to debate any theology with anyone. I don't know nearly enough to back up any opinions I may or may not have. I just want to know that there are others who can relate to where I'm at and where they think I should go from here. Thank you for bearing with me through this long post.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2016, 10:00:26 pm »

Hi Nutrichuckles93,

Thank you, thank you for sharing your story here.  I believe many can relate.  Many current and former GCx folks are likely too familiar with an experience similar to yours.  Accepting Christ as your Saviour is more between you and God than it is between you and those who shared Christ with you.  They or their leader/pastor cannot take his place in "affirming you in the faith" or "growing you".  You do not have to prove anything to them.  

Two things you said I can relate to.  The first is being rushed into something spiritual by others.  The evening I accepted Christ (also by someone in GCx) some were pushing to get me baptized that night without much input on my part.  I wasn't ready (though truly saved), but the next night I succumbed to pressure to do it and was not as enthusiastic as those who came seemed to be.  I felt ashamed inside that I wasn't as excited.  Just the start of an entire pushy agenda for my life that I was about to encounter.  

The second is doubting my salvation.  I don't think I would have doubted my salvation so often and for so long had I left GCx very soon after I accepted Christ.  I would have found other believers who I could grow at my own pace with.  Christians who were dependent on God for their growth, and rather than the manipulative praises of men.  But instead as I stayed and listened to very narrow and manipulative teaching I became quite confused.  I also was afraid to discuss this with too many for fear they would confirm my doubts.  I went atleast five years, sure one month and not sure the next month after some ridiculous assertion about what a saved person does.  A person saved by GCx's definition has been one who buys into everything they teach and never leaves the church.

It seems that you were not given much time or space to grow according to God's plan, but were pressured to give up things, make rash commitments to the church, and to perform according their plan.  If the church and its leaders get substituted for Christ you have trouble, confusion, and much less joy.  God was not asking or expecting you to do all these performances to prove your salvation and your passion for Christ.  Personally, I think passion builds over time and getting to know Jesus.  It's a personal journey with both success and failure. (Abraham's life is a good example.)  It's a person we begin to trust more as he tries our faith and we don't walk away.  I assume everyone has had a passing thought that God doesn't exist even as a believer because that's what the flesh, the world and the devil would like us to believe.  But, with encouragement and proper teaching we learn how to deal with doubts, sometimes over and over.  If we let them become more important than what God says then we will be led astray from trusting God.  We are still going to heaven but we will loose the opportunities to truly bear fruit and trust God to see and do wonderful things.

The devil's number one target for a believer is his faith.  He can't reverse or take away our eternal salvation, but he can shipwreck our faith.  But of course that is something that God can heal.  Look at his promise in Hosea 14:4.  

I wouldn't be worried at all about not getting the same attention as you used to when you were participating in everything as a single.  First of all, healthy christians in healthy churches do not do church activities every night of the week.  I feel our presence at all those activities does not make one bit of difference to God unless we are seeking him and looking to him in those things.  Many of the people in GCx including myself did too many of those things to be seen by others in the church and the leadership.  Their caste system drives an incredible amount of work, to keep their people carrying the weight of the churches' importance and existence, increasing numbers and enthusiasm.

Also, may I say you might be carrying a weight yourself as you are trying to fulfill a man-made (GCx) model of what a husband is to be and do.  That is probably NOT God's will for you.  I think other men in GCx suffered under that weight.  They felt their glory days were behind them.  I think it was because GCx ordered and planned so much of their daily activity that they didn't have to think about what they could or should be doing.  They equated activity and crowds with passion for the Lord.  People have to learn their own sync in their marriage, and loving your wife is pretty important on Jesus' list.  How you do that is between you and her and God.  It will not and should not be exactly like someone else's marriage.

On the pressuring of your pastor I totally agree with you.  Absolutely, how dare him have the gall to order your choices for you, especially such a monumental one!  You have the God given right to make your own choices and defiinitely according to your timeframe - not his.  

Jesus says through Paul that we should be in churches that build us up and respect us as God made us,  rather than being somewhere where our faith is constantly challenged, confused and chipped away at.  Perhaps sometime you and your wife can just visit other bible study groups outside GCx to see how they interact with each other and the leaders.

Again, very glad you wrote.  By the way, here's something to ponder.  John the Baptist who has such a special birth, ministry and place in Jesus' life, YET began to doubt once he was in the trial and trauma of prison (for preaching about him).  He is quoted as ASKING if Jesus was the True Messiah!  It is repeated again in case we cannot believe our ears.  But he was very wise in his doubting.  He asked the ONE who has the answer.

Encouraging Words I Hope,

Janet




« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 08:02:50 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
nutrichuckles93
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2016, 05:05:59 pm »

Thanks very much for your reply, Janet. I honestly hadn't put it together in my head yet that maybe when I was "saved" that I was committing to a group of people's interpretation of philosophy/doctrine than the Almighty Himself. It certainly makes me reconsider my position towards God currently, in a way favorable towards Him.

Your words towards the Lord are favorable to Him, but not excessively pushy. I have yet to experience this form of faith. Again, thank you for replying. My belief that Christianity can be kind and pleasant have been, ever so slightly, rejuvenated.
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 01:43:31 am »

Hi Nutrichuckles,

You totally have found people who have been where you are and to whom you can relate.

I was far more active years ago and notorious for vomiting tons of verbiage out. In my defense, I was a freaking-out young man uncertain about everything and falling apart and in tears day and night praying and warning and then abandoned...

I almost found myself trying that again and decided just to say hello for now. Would love to hang/chat with you more and be a resource. I just want to be better than old me, and also get to some work since it's so late and I must do it. Smiley

But don't feel alone, yah? Hopefully, I can be of use/friendly advice/informative for you while you're figuring things out.

Regards,
TRP

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araignee19
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2016, 10:24:21 pm »

Hi nutrichuckles93,

It’s been a while since I posted here at all, but some things you said caught my attention, so I thought I’d throw out my 2 cents worth.

First of all, I want to encourage you that there is a much deeper and freer version of Christianity available than what you have probably seen so far. There are churches where it doesn’t feel like a chore to go to church, and you don’t have to feel guilty if you can’t make all the meetings, church services, and events or if you don’t feel entirely comfortable with various types of outreach. Heck, I haven’t been to church in probably a month or more because I’ve been too busy, and I don’t feel guilty at all. There are places where you can grow at a natural rate that won’t eventually lead to burnout or constant feelings of failure. I would encourage you to find a place like that when you are ready.


As for the holes in logic and inconsistencies: yeah, they do seem to exist. Personally, I have come to the conclusion they don’t matter. I know that sounds crazy, but give me a change to explain. I’ll start by saying that I am a scientist, and I have a natural desire to find strong reasons for everything I believe. I’ve spent a lot of my life flipping back and forth between agnosticism and Christianity based on what the best evidence and logical arguments seemed to support at the moment.

I once heard an analogy given by one of my fellow scientists, as we were trying to figure out how to answer some question or other. He pointed out that really, when we flip a penny, it is not truly a 50-50 chance of heads and tails. If we knew every possible variable in a room at any given time, such as the air movement, the exact weight distribution of the penny, the force at which it was tossed, exactly how it was tossed, etc. we would be able to predict how it would land 100% of the time. But we will never know all of these variables, so at a certain point, we just have to choose heads or tails and stick with it. If we try to use what we do know about a tossed penny to try and predict how it will land, we will likely be wrong anyways, because we didn’t base our prediction on complete information.

I think faith can be a lot like that. We will never have enough information to make a truly educated and correct decision about religion based on evidence.  The very definition of a supernatural god would make it impossible to discover everything based on natural evidence and logic alone. If we make our decisions about faith based on evidence, we will flip back and forth forever.

What I am certain about: grace. Grace is something beautiful and completely different than anything else I have seen. It is unique to Christianity (a few other religions have a version, but not quite the concept of Biblical grace). The story of the Bible, that humans are inherently sinful, explains so much of what I see in the world. And grace is a beautiful ending to that story. I guess Christianity seems ethically true to me. It explains what I see in the world on a level I can’t explain with science. My choice to believe is more based on philosophy and ethics than evidence, which sometimes still surprises me. As C.S. Lewis said, “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”

At a certain point, I have personally made a choice. I have chosen to follow the God of the Bible. And no matter what the evidence says in the future, I will no longer allow myself to flip flop, because I know next week I could hear a better argument for the other side. I may have doubts, and I suppose those are based on evidence. But I think true faith is acknowledging whatever doubts we have, and choosing to follow or believe something regardless of those doubts. I would argue you can’t have true faith without doubt, but I’m sure some would disagree.

There is a song that sums up my thoughts on grace and faith nicely. It’s called Shifting Sand by Caedmon’s Call (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQKBo0PeU98). It’s one of the few Christian songs I actually like, and it has meant a lot to me over the past few years.

The nice thing about grace: your salvation does not rest on your feelings and how genuine they are. Nor does it rest on your efforts or goodness, or even how strongly you choose it. The great mystery is that it rests on God and God alone, and that’s exactly how it is supposed to be.

No idea if this makes sense to you or helps at all. I think I used to be in a similar place to what you have described here, so I thought I would share the conclusions I have arrived at. Hopefully it helps, at least a tiny bit.



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nutrichuckles93
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2016, 05:12:37 pm »

Thank you both for your replies. I appreciate you taking the time to read my long story. It may take a long time to figure out where I stand or belong, so I'm thankful for anyone who isn't immediately judgemental of the fact that I actually need to think things through.
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2016, 05:00:58 am »

Thank you both for your replies. I appreciate you taking the time to read my long story. It may take a long time to figure out where I stand or belong, so I'm thankful for anyone who isn't immediately judgemental of the fact that I actually need to think things through.

Judging you! Wink

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Free in Christ
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2017, 03:31:52 pm »

Hi nutrichuckles93,

I'm not sure if you'll read this, as you posted a bit ago, but I just wanted to encourage you.

From your message, you obviously have a really good heart. You are honestly searching for answers and honestly searching for God, and that is an amazing thing. God is honored by it.

Take heart: Having doubts does not nullify your faith. Here are some pretty amazing quotes on that (from even the pope Smiley ) . https://relevantmagazine.com/god/7-prominent-christian-thinkers-who-wrestled-doubt

I've been a Christian for a long time, but I still struggle with doubts. If I deny them, they definitely push me away from God. But if I'm brave enough to examine them, they draw me closer to truth and further away from untruth. Sometimes doubt is a really necessary part of faith. It helps to get rid of the unhealthy, sickly bits, and it sounds like that's precisely what is happening to you. Also, there are more than one interpretation on many sticky theological issues. Many would have you believe otherwise, but you can believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ and have a different interpretation on issues like women speaking in church or a literal 6 day creation or any of the other difficult topics.

I would encourage you to start reading and engaging with other elements of Christianity, outside of those you have been exposed to. You say you wanted to study writing. You might enjoy some C.S. Lewis. (I know, such a stereotypical suggestion, but he's always surprising, even though he's touted by some of the most conservative thinkers.) Maybe try out another church where you will be more free to have discussions about your faith and ask the really hard and really important questions you have. Especially as a relatively young Christian, being able to engage in this kind of growth is really important, and if your current situation doesn't allow for it, it would be healthy to find a place where you can.

Take heart.
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