Doctrinal Issues of Jim McCotter... (Only Doctrine Please)

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[PietWowo]

Let's put this a little more focused and more concrete. I'm going to start a thread on what doctrinal positions that Jim McCotter has that you feel are unBiblical.

Now, I'm going to suggest that we keep this thread to solely doctrinal positions. I.e. if he was mean to someone, that might be a character flaw, but it's not a doctrinal flaw.  I'm not at all saying that character flaws are unimportant. I just suggest that within that thread we focus in on one major issue.... doctrine...

For instance, the mormons don't believe in monotheism... So, that's a doctrinal flaw.  The mormons also will disown their children, if they get married to a non-mormon. That's not a doctrinal flaw... Though I don't agree with it. Now I realize that doctrine and character do overlap... But for the sake of focus, I would suggest that we keep it to pure doctrine.... If someone wants to discuss character deficiencies, start another thread.... I want to see if you guys actually think that Jim has bad doctrine. And by the way, that's far more easier to prove or disprove.... I start the thread like now.... I would be surprised if you guys can come up with one page...

[Huldah]

Speaking only for myself, I've been very active on the forum this week, but now I'm finding that there are things in real life that require my full attention. Even before I saw this thread, I had decided to step back from the forum for a few days. So I may be able to answer in a day or two, or I may not answer till next week. It just depends how things go around here. I'm not dodging the question. It's simply an issue of timing.

[PietWowo]

Ok, take your time. I look forward to hearing your thoughts!!!   

[Linda]

Hey PWW,
Read this forum. We have discussed bad teaching extensively for 15 years. There is nothing more to say and no need to waste our time. It’s all here.

[PietWowo]

Hey PWW,
Read this forum. We have discussed bad teaching extensively for 15 years. There is nothing more to say and no need to waste our time. It’s all here.

I'm sure it is there somewhere. You would know. But I haven't seen it.... But I see a lot of writing, criticizing him.... I've not yet seen any thing substantial about bad doctrine on here.... But you probably don't know. So, you don't need to participate in this thread.... if you don't want to.

[Huldah]

Edited from my original post last night.

.. But you probably don't know. So, you don't need to participate in this thread....

That was really unnecessary and insulting.

I had every intention of coming back to this thread in a couple of days and taking some real time and effort to try to explain what the worst teachings were and how devastating it was to live under them, but then I read that and I just thought, why even bother?

My time at a McCotterite church was an intensely painful thing to live through and I'm not sure I want to re-open it, if all the effort is just going to be dismissed or rationalized away. I was originally planning to bail out of this discussion after I saw your (PWW) remark to Linda. On reflection, I'm going to give it some time before making a final decision. I guess it will depend on the level of respect shown to the people who already bothered to answer. I'm willing to spend time and effort helping people who really want to know, but I don't want to waste time with on recreational quarreling, which is how so many of these discussions seem to end up.

[Linda]

Hey PWW,
Read this forum. We have discussed bad teaching extensively for 15 years. There is nothing more to say and no need to waste our time. It’s all here.

I'm sure it is there somewhere. You would know. But I haven't seen it.... But I see a lot of writing, criticizing him.... I've not yet seen any thing substantial about bad doctrine on here.... But you probably don't know. So, you don't need to participate in this thread.... if you don't want to.

I had never heard of Jim McCotter when we left ECC. I found out about him because Mark Darling had mentioned and expose about him that appeared in the Des Moines Register. Mark referred to him as a "former leader". When Larry Pile sent us "Marching to Zion", I found mention of the article and the date of the paper, went to the local library and looked on the microfiche where I found the article that quoted Jim. It was awful. I ordered and have copies. I had no idea our "pastors" listened to that garbage and sat at that man's feet. Especially horrible was the part on discipline that suggested the child would be black and blue, but not bleeding "necessarily".

The GCx web library used to have his writings, teachings, and tapes/transcripts of his excommunications. Someone hacked it making the documentation unavailable. Just like with Twitter and Facebook, apparently bad people censor negative information and try to hide the truth.

That said, this forum is not specifically about Jim McCotter. This forum is "for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology."

Because you have not experienced problems in the practice or theology, this forum is not for you. There are people here who have had their minds messed with by faulty teaching and their lives and spiritual walk have been damaged by ambitious, controlling, and misled leaders. I write for them. Not for you.

[Linda]

Quote from: Des Moines Register article:

McCotter's sermons often are tape recorded and sold at the THEOS owned bookstore. The theories in one tape dealing with child rearing practices drew criticism from ISU child development professor Sedahlia Crase.

Crase says, "A student asked me to invite McCotter to speak to the class because she felt I wasn't presenting the Christian perspective on child-rearing. The student said McCotter was a nationally known authority on children, but I had never heard of him. That's when I learned of the tape. I was shocked when I heard it. He actually advocates bruising children."

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

[Linda]

https://web.archive.org/web/20170426062728/http://gcxweb.org/Articles/DSR-11-26-1978-b.aspx

[Janet Easson Martin]

All who make idols are nothing,
    and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
    they are ignorant, to their own shame.
Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
    which can profit nothing?
People who do that will be put to shame;
    such craftsmen are only human beings.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
    they will be brought down to terror and shame.

Isaiah 44:9-11

[Janet Easson Martin]

 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

Matthew 7:15-16


False Prohphets & Teachers often come cloaked in written doctrinal statements and values from the Bible.  They customarily do not appear on the outside what they are on the inside.  If they were upfront about their perversion of doctrines, Christianity would much more easily rid the Body of Christ of them.  And naive believers would not step foot in their group.  But, False Teachers hide their practices in secret!  

False Teachers would probably tell you they adhere to all the doctrines of sound Christian Churches.  But, they almost always claim they are superior to those churches in some way/s.  They almost always slander those churches and promise they follow God more closely or more accurately.  Hence, the trap!

Once members are established, there is a very strong persuasion to never to speak any truth that is negative about the leaders or the church.   People are directed very closely in their personal lives loosing confidence and freedom to make their own choices, resulting in depression and loneliness.  In actuality these “teachers” are not only not superior, but harmful to one’s faith.  They actually discourage good biblical interaction and teaching outside themselves and their permission.  In practice they really tear down the people and demean the gifts of those who join them rather than build them up in their faith and gifts as the Bible commands.

This whole website revolves around the grave damage caused by false teaching and practices of Jim McCotter; and the disciples he passed his teaching and practices down to.  To ask what he taught wrong is to MISS MOST OF WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE!!!

Deleting some formal written documentation of McCotter’s sinful abuses and errors on here with the “XEvil” Page interface block in no way removes the mountain of evidence against his unbiblical teachings and practices from the testimony of members once inside his wall of silence.  Some simple savvy computer skills will retrieve those pages soon enough.

[LostCreature2]

I would like to contribute a few things to this current thread, as one who has grown up in the movement.

First, as I have posted before,
while previous Larry Pile documents from Great Commission Warning and GCX Library seem to have been deleted,
they can still be accessed via The Way-Back Machine (https://archive.org/web/).

2nd, while I am not familiar on a personal level with McCotter or his previous teachings,
(as I was not born before he left the movement),
I am familiar with researching his recent teachings, which he posts on his own personal website
and per the separate house church movement group that he seems to have founded back in the early 2010's.

He seems to currently focus significantly on Dominionist Theology (in particular, the 7 Pillars of Influence).

In a nutshell, Dominionist Theology is not biblical,
as the ultimate outcome of this is a theocracy that misunderstands the Kingdom of Heaven to be an Earthly kingdom.

[Janet Easson Martin]

If anyone has read any length at all of the testimonies here or was under McCotter’s or his disciples’ teachings himself, it would be straightforward to conclude the following:


McCotter twisted and perverted the Doctrines of Sin and Church Discipline.


McCotter taught that questioning him or his appointed elders was sin, and equal to the sin of “rebellion”.

McCotter taught that leaving his church group was sin, and also laid doubt on that person’s eternal salvation.

McCotter taught that thinking or speaking negatively about the leadership to anyone was sin, and usually often slandered that person’s reputation.

McCotter taught that those who questioned his or his disciples’ authority should be publicly labeled as “divisive” and therefore shunned by the rest of the members.  He sinfully twisted and abused the doctrine of Church Discipline.



McCotter twisted and perverted the Doctrines of Submission to Church Leaders, Commandments of Honoring God and Parents, and Seeking an Abundance of Wise Counsel


McCotter taught that men (and women) must seek the counsel of their leaders on who to pursue as a potential spouse.  He advised against pursuing those on the fringes or outside the church.

McCotter taught that members (especially college-aged) should not listen to their parents counsel or advice when it conflicted with the purposes of his church.

McCotter taught that an abundance of counsel meant many “wise” men from one place - his church.

McCotter taught in the 70’s that members should drop out of college to serve his church.

McCotter taught that a 10% tithe was not enough.

McCotter taught that single members should live exclusively with people from the church.

[Huldah]

LostCreature2, thank you for the update on Jim's teaching and for the Wayback link.

[Janet Easson Martin]

Yes, thank you, Lost Creature2.

[PietWowo]

Edited from my original post last night.

.. But you probably don't know. So, you don't need to participate in this thread....

That was really unnecessary and insulting.

I had every intention of coming back to this thread in a couple of days and taking some real time and effort to try to explain what the worst teachings were and how devastating it was to live under them, but then I read that and I just thought, why even bother?

My time at a McCotterite church was an intensely painful thing to live through and I'm not sure I want to re-open it, if all the effort is just going to be dismissed or rationalized away. I was originally planning to bail out of this discussion after I saw your (PWW) remark to Linda. On reflection, I'm going to give it some time before making a final decision. I guess it will depend on the level of respect shown to the people who already bothered to answer. I'm willing to spend time and effort helping people who really want to know, but I don't want to waste time with on recreational quarreling, which is how so many of these discussions seem to end up.

Huldah, I didn't mean that to be insulting.... I just hadn't seen any discussion of doctrine... And she said it was a waste of time.... So, people can participate, if they want to.

[PietWowo]

Edited from my original post last night.

.. But you probably don't know. So, you don't need to participate in this thread....

That was really unnecessary and insulting.

I had every intention of coming back to this thread in a couple of days and taking some real time and effort to try to explain what the worst teachings were and how devastating it was to live under them, but then I read that and I just thought, why even bother?

My time at a McCotterite church was an intensely painful thing to live through and I'm not sure I want to re-open it, if all the effort is just going to be dismissed or rationalized away. I was originally planning to bail out of this discussion after I saw your (PWW) remark to Linda. On reflection, I'm going to give it some time before making a final decision. I guess it will depend on the level of respect shown to the people who already bothered to answer. I'm willing to spend time and effort helping people who really want to know, but I don't want to waste time with on recreational quarreling, which is how so many of these discussions seem to end up.

Me neither....

[PietWowo]

Hey PWW,
Read this forum. We have discussed bad teaching extensively for 15 years. There is nothing more to say and no need to waste our time. It’s all here.

I'm sure it is there somewhere. You would know. But I haven't seen it.... But I see a lot of writing, criticizing him.... I've not yet seen any thing substantial about bad doctrine on here.... But you probably don't know. So, you don't need to participate in this thread.... if you don't want to.

I had never heard of Jim McCotter when we left ECC. I found out about him because Mark Darling had mentioned and expose about him that appeared in the Des Moines Register. Mark referred to him as a "former leader". When Larry Pile sent us "Marching to Zion", I found mention of the article and the date of the paper, went to the local library and looked on the microfiche where I found the article that quoted Jim. It was awful. I ordered and have copies. I had no idea our "pastors" listened to that garbage and sat at that man's feet. Especially horrible was the part on discipline that suggested the child would be black and blue, but not bleeding "necessarily".

The GCx web library used to have his writings, teachings, and tapes/transcripts of his excommunications. Someone hacked it making the documentation unavailable. Just like with Twitter and Facebook, apparently bad people censor negative information and try to hide the truth.

That said, this forum is not specifically about Jim McCotter. This forum is "for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology."

Because you have not experienced problems in the practice or theology, this forum is not for you. There are people here who have had their minds messed with by faulty teaching and their lives and spiritual walk have been damaged by ambitious, controlling, and misled leaders. I write for them. Not for you.

I have not said that I didn't experience bad doctrine.... There are a lot of threads on here relating to Jim McCotter... Most of them dealing with practice, not doctrine... See my comments below... I opened this thread to examine ONE aspect of Jim McCotter, his doctrine.... not his practice.... See the thoughts below...

[PietWowo]

Quote from: Des Moines Register article:

McCotter's sermons often are tape recorded and sold at the THEOS owned bookstore. The theories in one tape dealing with child rearing practices drew criticism from ISU child development professor Sedahlia Crase.

Crase says, "A student asked me to invite McCotter to speak to the class because she felt I wasn't presenting the Christian perspective on child-rearing. The student said McCotter was a nationally known authority on children, but I had never heard of him. That's when I learned of the tape. I was shocked when I heard it. He actually advocates bruising children."

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

That would be a very good topic to discuss, but it's practice not doctrine.... Doctrinal issues are like: The Deity of Christ, Free Will/Predestination, The Trinity, Eternal Security,  Whether or not the sign gifts, i.e. tongues are for today, Lordship salvation, Infallibility of the Word of God, etc, etc....

[PietWowo]

All who make idols are nothing,
    and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
    they are ignorant, to their own shame.
Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
    which can profit nothing?
People who do that will be put to shame;
    such craftsmen are only human beings.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
    they will be brought down to terror and shame.

Isaiah 44:9-11

Great verse Janet, but can you tell me which doctrine, that Jim teaches falsely.... (not practice, doctrine....)  Maybe they can open up a separate thread on faulty practices of Jim McCotter.