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Author Topic: Factual Errors in the Book: Marching to Zion?  (Read 12518 times)
EverAStudent
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« on: January 08, 2009, 12:12:00 pm »

This thread is dedicated to tabling the evidence as to whether the online book by Larry Pile, Marching to Zion ( http://gcxweb.org/Books/MarchingToZion/Default.aspx ), is factually accurate.  Any who have evidence that a statement of history or a statement of fact in Marching to Zion is inaccurate is invited to leave a comment quoting the actual statement from the book (include at least the entire sentence if not the entire paragraph) in error and quoting the evidence that disproves the statement in the book.

If no evidence is cited identifying any factual errors (or if only the most insignificant comments are noted) then the integrity of the book is confirmed and can be used with some confidence as a reference of GCI behaviors.  If significant falsehoods and factual errors are demonstrated and substantiated with evidence, then the book must be viewed with a healthy skepticism.

Finally, it should be expected that Larry Pile is also invited to respond to or address the allegations of factual errors, if he desires.

NOTE:  allegations of “attitude,” “tone,” “style,” "opinion," or “motive” against the author, Larry Pile, or those the author quotes, will not be tolerated.  Such allegations are matters of taste, opinion, or unknowable matters of another’s secret heart, and do not impugn the factual accuracy of the book.  Similarly, allegations of personal grievances against Larry Pile will not be tolerated--except as they are written about in the book--because this thread is only about the factual accuracy of the book.  Only matters of historical fact may be challenged, and then, only with evidence.  Those who try to challenge Larry Pile’s “attitude,” or “motives,” "opinions," or “character” will find their posts getting requests to the moderator to be deleted.  Stick to historical facts and evidence.

May God be glorified by establishing the truth, for the truth sets us free.
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Huldah
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 02:00:10 pm »

What if we have personal knowledge of some event in the book, and wish to affirm its veracity? Can we post about that, or would you prefer to dvote this thread entirely to refutations?
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 02:05:41 pm »

Quote from: huldah
What if we have personal knowledge of some event in the book, and wish to affirm its veracity? Can we post about that, or would you prefer to dvote this thread entirely to refutations?

Great question, Huldah!  Since the goal of the thread is to either confirm or refute the factual accuracy of the book, I should think that verifications of the historical nature of specific accounts is very appropriate.  Go for it...
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DrSam
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 10:58:37 am »

Keep in mind that if this were a more credible and valid research and experimental process you would have to contact GC officials, make announcements outside of this forum's limited readership, and contact present and former elders who were involved in encounters with Martin, McDonald, Royal, Pile, and others. When you assume that getting absolutely no contest from only forum readers that does not prove unequivocally accuracy of anti-GC sources. You could only say, "It appears that the accounts are accurate based on our views and this limited input." That is normal protocol in research prolegomena in dealing with biases of sorts.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 11:01:27 am by DrSam » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 12:10:31 pm »

They are free to post here and they know about this forum. Some have posted here already.

However, you were there, Sam, are you aware of any factual inaccuracies in the book?

Truth be told, we showed the book to one of our "pastors" to ask directly if there was any truth to the things mentioned.

Sam, he wouldn't even look through the book. He told us it was one man's opinion and that it was only one side of the story. That was the point of us asking him to take a look at what was written. We wanted to know if it was a bunch of baloney or not.

GC elders will not look at the book to verify its accuracy because they have been instructed that looking is receiving a bad report. That is an insane argument!
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Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
DrSam
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 01:13:39 pm »

They are free to post here and they know about this forum. Some have posted here already.

Yes, true but that does not make the issue of limited readership go away which, in turn, skews results. At best, it would create suspicion and raise questions in the mind of a legitimate and qualified researcher. Forum limited readership would have to be addressed if it were to qualify for research that is based on highly integrous research methods. I'm simply sharing what a research and/or peer reviewed committee would typically say if they were to look at whether Larry Pile has a work that fulfills strict research phenomenological standards. If he were to submit the work as a thesis a research committee would strip it apart and examine his process and would require evidence of what is called triangulation in order to stand scrutiny making the compiled data valid. Then there would be his conclusions as to whether it can stand historiographical legitimacy. 
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However, you were there, Sam, are you aware of any factual inaccuracies in the book?

Larry's book is primarily covering history of the Bill Taylor saga and then of the inner workings of Today's Student paper with Mike Royal as one of the main claimants agreeing with Larry's assessment and views. I (and Mike Royal) came into Ames from seminary at the tail end of the Bill Taylor saga. I do not consider myself or Mike Royal authorities on the Bill Taylor saga. I do not consider myself an authority on the issues of the Today's Student though I was in some of the initial meetings when it was being created (Mike Royal was there). At best, I see Larry's book as a collection of literature pieces, correspondence, some interviews, etc. and then colored by his analysis. I do not deny abuses and mistakes were made but cannot say that exonerates Pile and Associates from their zealous endeavor to recruit to their side, and becoming suspicious of promoting division. I even confronted on this forum Larry on deprogramming. He was very skilled, like a lawyer to say things in such a way as to sound like he or his cohorts never participated in a deprogramming of GC folks. I have never gotten clarity from the Mary Harvey episode where these guys may have been PRESENT (which can be twisted to be technically as "not participating") but are very quiet about. Deprogramming is illegal and a strong basis for lawsuits. That could explain why extreme caution on Larry's side and using skilled responses, in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 01:20:05 pm by DrSam » Logged
EverAStudent
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 01:35:40 pm »

Stop!  

Quote from: Reminder from the introduction to this thread
Similarly, allegations of personal grievances against Larry Pile will not be tolerated--except as they are written about in the book--because this thread is only about the factual accuracy of the book.  Only matters of historical fact may be challenged, and then, only with evidence.

This thread is NOT about allegations of whether Larry Pile performed "deprogramming" or provided counseling! 

NOR is this thread a philosophical discussion about whether Marching to Zion meets the qualifications to become a peer-reviewed research article in an imaginary journal. 

This thread is an open invitation to offer up EVIDENCES of non-factual assertions made in the book, or, confirmations that the accounts are accurate, at least as far as eyewitness accounts can be confirmed.  That is all. 

If your personal standards for reading and accepting the factual accuracy of Marching to Zion are higher than that, that is your personal business.  But I want to know if any reasonable person, who has seen the events described, can either confirm, or offer evidences that disprove, the accuracy of the book.  To date NO ONE has offered any contradictions to the accuracy of the narratives.  Not even on little points.  THAT is sufficient to make the book very credible in my own eyes.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 03:01:40 pm by EverAStudent » Logged
DrSam
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 02:04:12 pm »

This post was off topic and was deleted.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 02:09:08 pm by EverAStudent » Logged
DrSam
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2009, 02:14:14 pm »

This post was off topic and was deleted.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 02:19:15 pm by EverAStudent » Logged
askingquestionsaboutGCI
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 02:41:03 pm »

As fate (or God??) would have it, I have a lunch meeting scheduled with a friend/colleague at the end of next week.  She and her husband were from the '70's-'80's era GCx, and he was a pastor.  They left in the late 80's-early 90's, and because of this website, I've asked her to meet with me to discuss the history of GCx and her family's experiences, as I'm tryng to gather more information for my own family (currently at at GC church).  Are there any direct questions that people here would like me to ask her?  I will not divulge her name, unless she gives me permission, but she's a very "straight-shooter" type of person, and I have absolutely no doubt that she will not use evasiveness nor be untruthful in any way -- that's just not her style at all!!  So, please let me know what questions you would like answered, and I'll see what she knows/has to say.

If this is the wrong forum to post this in, I apologize  Huh Huh -- please feel to move to a more appropriate place!! Wink
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 02:48:01 pm »

Quote from: asking
As fate (or God??) would have it, I have a lunch meeting scheduled with a friend/colleague at the end of next week.  She and her husband were from the '70's-'80's era GCx, and he was a pastor.  They left in the late 80's-early 90's, and because of this website, I've asked her to meet with me to discuss the history of GCx and her family's experiences, as I'm tryng to gather more information for my own family (currently at at GC church).  Are there any direct questions that people here would like me to ask her?  I will not divulge her name, unless she gives me permission, but she's a very "straight-shooter" type of person, and I have absolutely no doubt that she will not use evasiveness nor be untruthful in any way -- that's just not her style at all!!  So, please let me know what questions you would like answered, and I'll see what she knows/has to say.

Personally, I would like to know if she would be interested in reading Marching to Zion to see if she has any first-hand information that would contradict statements made in the book, or can confirm them.
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DrSam
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2009, 06:41:34 pm »

Please explain why my two posts were deleted.
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