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Author Topic: Jesus time machine  (Read 11435 times)
danrudeisevil
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« on: June 13, 2011, 06:24:49 pm »

I would consider myself to be a curious chap and like to understand how people think, and I've noticed something in the majority of replies that I would like to probe further if you'll permit me. This is not for 'passing judgement' or anything else you expect me of since I'm an atheist, I would like your honest opinion. The question I'm about to ask is merely for seeing how the religious mind works and to compare it to my own experiences when I was religious. Here it is:

Let's say, hypothetically, that someone invents a time machine that can travel to 1st century palestine (for free). It automatically sends you to any point you wish in Jesus' life, and makes you invisible and able to understand aramaic and greek. If you go in you will be able to 100% verify wether or not Jesus is the son of God. Would you go? If not, why?

If you want you can add this to the hypothetical: this machine wipes all memory of the experience on your return journey.... so no one can know for sure if Jesus was the 'real deal' and cannot interfere with your faith. Please specify in your response if you used this clause in constructing you answer.

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nelliepooh
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2011, 08:23:30 pm »

So if I were to go back and know Jesus is who the Bible says he is but have no memory I would definately do it.  Some may say its a waste because you wouldn't remember and couldn't share about it but who would believe you anyway?  If its free and I get to know for a split second but not remember its worth a shot anyway.  Only thing I would be afraid of is if I found out it wasn't true and then came back not remembering.  I have a strong faith though that there is a God and the Bible is true and either way time travel would be sweet and the way I live my life wouldn't change. I suppose if I did remember that it wasn't true no one would believe me about that either unless I could prove it to them and I'm not buying their ticket.
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BarryManilowisevil
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2011, 08:56:57 pm »

Initial answer is no because it isn't necessary and because I don't see what it has to do with GCx. After thinking about it for a while, I would love to go back. Reason is to understand things better and because I would want to be able to be with Jesus, even if for a bit. If my memory is wiped out, I guess I wouldn't understand anything better. To be more specific, I would like to be on the Emmaus road after the resurrection.

Question to you, DRIE, is if you went back and beheld the crucifixion and stuck around to see a resurrected Christ, would you bow your knee to him and worship him? (and if you say no because it would be illogical, then delete the whole time machine thread).
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danrudeisevil
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2011, 09:22:00 pm »

To answer barry frankly: I would have a good number of objective tests to perform on him before I re-un-re-accepted him. I would make sure to be at Lazarus' resurrection (aside: why the hell did he not say anything about being dead?), track Jesus' body from cavalry to the resurrection and ask him science questions (if he being god, should know more science than anybody); I'd bring a copy of the human genome and ask him to recite it all. I'd probably do more things and ask him some more tough questions, but verified, I would become a christian again. So I guess the entire purpose of this enterprise is to ask, "if you could know, would you want to? or do you want to keep faith as faith?"

Insofar as it involves GCx, thats why this is in the 'off topic' section
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 09:23:35 pm by danrudeisevil » Logged
BarryManilowisevil
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2011, 09:37:59 pm »

Sure, I'd want to know more, which is why I said I'd like to be on the Emmaus road, because it is there that he explained everything of the scriptures and how they related to him. According to what I know, which is from scripture, even seeing a man raised from the dead and miracles don't necessarily produce belief. It is still a gift of faith. So what I'm also saying is that the bottom line for me is to keep faith as faith.

I've chimed in, I'll let someone else share if they want. Back to the music....

"Oh Mandy, you came and you gave without takin', but I threw it away..."
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danrudeisevil
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2011, 09:55:44 pm »

Manilow, you cant stop listening to it!

I also think it's important to add that just like Barry's music, if Jesus turned out to be true I'd accept him, but that doesn't mean I would like it. It would be like meeting a stronger man in a prison shower, if you don't bend over to pick up the soap, he'll beat you senseless  and then make you his bitch anyways. If your gunna get 'spoiled' you may as well avoid the 'rod', or is it the other way around? hehe
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2011, 08:41:38 am »

Some quick comments (I rarely address silly hypotheticals, but if that is price of admission to make some observations...then...).

No, I would not go if my motive had to be to test and prove out Jesus.  And no, I would not got if the silly time machine erased my memory on return.  I would go just to observe the interactions of my Lord and the people, to better understand the circumstances of the events and the contexts of the parables.  How could I not take the opportunity to learn at the feet of my Lord?

Regarding DRIE's comments about testing Jesus with scientific questions.  Jesus did not permit Himself to be tested in that manner, from what we read in the Gospels.  Oh, I think He would answer you, but in such a way as to demonstrate your insincere attitude toward Him and your lack of faith in God, as He did with the story of the good Samaritan (those who see the story as an uplifting encouragement to help one's neighbor have missed the entire point of the parable which answered the question, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" or possibly, What have I done wrong to disqualify me from eternal life?).

Observing Jesus would give you the opportunity to observe many miracles, however, just like the majority of those present who saw them in person, the miracles do not engender faith in the message that Jesus brought.  How many in the group who watched Lazarus return to life did not believe and went back and "told on Him" to the Jewish leadership?  Miracles are poor evangelists, though when accompanied by the faith of the observer, they do validate the individual as a messenger from God.

If you hated Jesus before you saw Him do a miracle, you might understand Him to be mightier than you are, but you will hate Him all the more just because He is mightier.

DRIE, there is nothing you could see in person with regard to Jesus that would be any more convincing to you than what you read in the Bible.  It is a common delusion to think that if you had just one more piece of data or one more empirical observation you would believe.  Truth is, when one hates God, the more they know about Him just makes them hate Him all the more.  Faith is not about seeing proof, satisfying one's personal curiosity,  it is about repenting of sin and being forgiven.  Faith is about loving and worshipping the one who is greater than we are.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 08:44:47 am by EverAStudent » Logged
danrudeisevil
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2011, 09:20:15 am »

Everastudent, I think you have just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'God' has not, and doesn't want me to have the 'gift of faith'. Jesus apparently was willing to answer doubting thomas, though with palpable scorn, so that everyman believe. I agree with you that Jesus most likely wouldn't (couldn't) answer my legitimate questions, but if he didn't answer them, I would be forced into one of two conclusions. Either he isn't God, or he is and thinks that I'm not worth acquiescing to.

Don't suppose that if I had that one extra 'bit' of info I'd believe. Not only does the NT contradict existing and verified archeological and historical records, it is internally inconsistent and has very scant documentation (few papyri), and when they find new scrolls it contradicts the old ones. One bit? Say one bit plus another thousand...PLUS altering most of recorded history (which is something christians are guilty of)
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Cossette729
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 09:36:29 am »

Everastudent, I think you have just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that 'God' has not, and doesn't want me to have the 'gift of faith'.

Or, um, that faith is not a gift, but a choice.  You don't want to have faith?  That's your choice.  But then what are you on about?  Faith, by its very nature, cannot be reasoned into/out of.  It's not rational.  I don't think anyone here would claim that it is.  But, in the inimitable words of the late, great David Foster Wallace, "here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship--be it JC or Allah, be it Yahweh or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles--is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive."
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2011, 09:39:44 am »

DRIE, I think you have the wording reveresed on your comment; it is God who wants you to come to salvific repentance but you are not desirous to do so.  The very fact that you are on this forum (even poking the proverbial bear) demonstrates the conviction you must be under to come to faith and repentance.  Many of us here would recognize that as the calling of God to you.  Remember, it is the Holy Spirit who calls us via conviction then regenerates us when we respond with repentance (repentance being a change of the mind with regard to sin and with regard to our own ability to save ourselves via our own "goodness").

When Herod told Jesus to perform a miracle during His night of trials, Jesus declined.  Why?  Not that He could not do it.  (If the Gospels were faked, then why did the fake authors not have Jesus do this critical miracle and turn unbelieving Herod into a believer?)  But He would not do it.  Miracles do not produce faith, and Him giving miraculous facts about science would not have convinced you (you would have said to Jesus, "Oh, I get how this stunt was done, EAS came back before I did and set you up with these answers...I'm not falling for that old trick...").  

Just like the Samaritan woman at the well, Thomas already believed in the biblical Messiah, they just were not yet totally convinced Jesus was that Messiah.  The miracle of prophecy for the woman and the miracle of touching the risen body of Jesus were sufficient to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah they already believed in, but the miracles did not give them faith in YHWH, they already had that.

Well DRIE, here is your chance to touch the risen Messiah.  Will you call Him "My God and My Lord"?  
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 09:43:17 am by EverAStudent » Logged
danrudeisevil
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2011, 11:31:46 am »

If Linda reads this post, I am extremely grateful for her participation in this general discussion because both of us (I think) are under the auspices that faith cannot convince reason and reason cannot convince faith; that this discussion could almost be construed as the sharpening of wit and refining of ideas (not just to Linda, but all who fall in this camp, thank you!). I came to this forum initially (and still do) to get information, to test its convictions about GCx against my own and get a better understanding of things. In my very first post, I assumed a moral imperetive, the concept of mutual non-conversion with the corollary that if, in the course discussion, either party 'changes sides' it is a side-effect of discussion, not a blatant attempt at conversion. At no point have I insinuated (or tried to) the following: "God does not exist, therefore you must not believe in him, come over to my side and I will heal you". I have indeed stated christianity is demonstrably false (and can back that up), but as a point of contention, not as a point of detention to acquiesce to my point of view. Do you understand this distinction between 'statement' and 'charge'? EVERYONE IS FREE TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WILL. YOU HAVE EQUAL RIGHT TO CHALLENGE MINE, AND I YOURS. For example, while I personally believe that atheism allows for a moral solidarity that religion cannot, I couldn't bring myself to say to someone, "atheism will make you a better person, convert now", and I believe it morally wrong to do so.

 One of my good friends is a christian, and we have debates very similar to the one that broke out in my 'breaking stereotypes' thing. We both have agreed to disagree, and if one of us 'converts' the other it will not be because of any emotional assention or by brute force. I made it clear, and he understands, that it is over as soon as the following happens:
Me:"I concede you have a valid point on a certain religious topic 'A'"
Him:"Ha! Gotchya! Now give yourself to Jesus!".
We have agreed that if he does this I have to right to slap him 5 times at any point in the future (it's our version of the 'slapbet' from How I Met Your Mother. Also notice that we have a great time hanging out because we make this important distinction. The debates get rather heated at points, but because of this rule, once the debate is over we still mutually respect eachother and can remain friends)

Your rather blatant, ham-handed and incessantly maladroit attempt to convert me to christianity has crossed that line, you have done the thing I have asked not to do, and I take this opportunity to take offense at this type of legerdemain. The breaking stereotypes thread was going swimmingly, but now, I say this for the record: Any hopes any of you had in reconverting me are completely dashed now that everastudent has so thoroughly proved the selfsame stereotype of christians I found so repulsive in GCx (sorry to have to name-drop like that, I wish I didn't have to either).

I wish to continue discussion (no matter how heated) on this site, but with this recent concession I cannot in good conscience continue, I respectfully withdraw myself from this website. I will leave my account on for the next week, in case any of you wish to send me personal correspondence of a non-converting nature. Thank you for all of your time.



P.S. I recently discovered a funny fake conversation that correctly conveys what evangelistic statements like the prior one sound like to the rest of the world. It's crude, funny but surprisingly adroit, I think if you dont let it get under your skin most of you might appreciate it: http://www.jhuger.com/pamphlets/kha.pdf
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Innerlight
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2011, 01:29:48 pm »

Fastest finger on the thesaurus button I've ever seen...

"Can I buy a vowel?"
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G_Prince
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2011, 08:12:57 pm »

Frankly this is a dumb question that smacks of "presentism." Truth is measured in many different ways...and subjecting history to the scientific method is usually not a good way of understanding the issue.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2011, 01:00:02 pm »

"Like" to Gene Prince's comment.   Grin
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G_Prince
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2011, 05:55:49 pm »


Your rather blatant, ham-handed and incessantly maladroit attempt to convert me to christianity has crossed that line, you have done the thing I have asked not to do, and I take this opportunity to take offense at this type of legerdemain. The breaking stereotypes thread was going swimmingly, but now, I say this for the record: Any hopes any of you had in reconverting me are completely dashed now that everastudent has so thoroughly proved the selfsame stereotype of christians I found so repulsive in GCx (sorry to have to name-drop like that, I wish I didn't have to either).


I'm sorry but what else did you expect? You join a chat room predominated by Christians of at least some stripe and proceed to start threads entitled "is anyone here an athiest?" and "Jesus time machine." You then state your opinion in very "confident" terms and expect everyone to nod their heads at your genius. Stop playing coy. Why don't you admit you were looking for a fight and get on with it?

You are trying just as hard to "convert" others to your ideology as they are trying to convert you. This is the point of debate. If you don't want to be converted don't start debates. I'm sorry to lay into you like this but your are one of the most thin skinned athiests I've ever encountered. Grow a pair and stop complaining when people challange your point of veiw.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
EverAStudent
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2011, 07:57:24 pm »

Hello G-Prince.

When people come to where I live and knock on my door and want to talk to me about religion, I will talk with them for about as long as they desire to do so.  As a result I have talked with Mormons in my home for hours (really!) and spent a year in a Jehovah's Witnesses Bible study group.  In every case, even though they always denied it, they came to where I was to convert me to their ideology.  Even the political campaigners come to my home to convert me to their way of thinking (I generally refuse to spend hours with them, however).

In every case they closed down the talks after they came to the conclusion I would not be converted, and they always blamed me for being too stubborn in resisting God, and they all said they could not be around anyone who had closed himself off to God as I had.  Even a GCI pastor did that to me once.  

I think the idea behind blaming me for their own decisions to walk away from the dialogue is to assuage their own consciences while simultaneously attempting to inflict as much guilt as possible, possibly as a way of manipulating me into making concessions to their beliefs so as to gain an advantage in case the conversations were to resume.  Of all the religions (and non-religions) I have met at my door, the most tenacious were the JWs.  

Well, I am still willing to talk to just about anyone on any religious topic they want.  But be assured, just as I suspect that their goal is to sway my thinking to their personal philosophy, so my goal is to uphold the Scriptures and to point them toward a trust in Christ.  A person can walk away from the dialogue at any time they desire.  The one thing that they cannot do is cause me to feel guilty for having talked to them about Christ.  What they decide to do with Christ, or with their own eternal destiny is entirely their own choice and responsibility, I cannot be made to share in that.

« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 08:02:02 pm by EverAStudent » Logged
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