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Author Topic: SBC adopts the Great Commission label  (Read 23110 times)
EverAStudent
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« on: July 06, 2013, 08:58:59 am »

To add to likely future naming confusion the Southern Baptist Convention / denomination in an effort to obscure linking its new church plants with the old line denomination has adopted "Great Commission Baptist Church" as its denominational label for its new churches to use.

Below is a cut and paste from the SBC website:

Maryland pastor Ken Fentress and seminary president Paige Patterson, at the four-month point since Southern Baptists embraced "Great Commission Baptists" as an informal name, reflect on the new descriptor. Fentress and Patterson were members of the task force appointed by then-SBC President Bryant Wright to study the possibility of an SBC name change. And both men addressed the SBC Executive Committee's February 2012 meeting when the task force recommended the option of Southern Baptists being known as "Great Commission Baptists," which subsequently was approved by messengers at the SBC's June 19-20 annual meeting in New Orleans. Fentress is senior pastor of Montrose Baptist Church in Rockville, Md.; Patterson is president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Fentress' reflections appear first, followed by Patterson's.

It seems probable to me that this will cause some level of confusion between the SBC, GCBC, and GCC. 
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Huldah
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2013, 12:04:28 pm »

There are other organizations with "Great Commission" in the title, and sometimes it is confusing to tell who's part of "our" GC and who's entirely separate. This is what happens when groups try to appropriate Biblical terms as their own trademark.
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2018, 06:31:01 am »

The structure of SBC is much like that of GCC.  I would hope that, rather than lamenting the turning tide against abuse and sexism (with #metoo and #churchtoo), GCC would look at other movements much bigger than theirs and see the consequences of failing to hold people accountable.  And what happens when you try to silence victims. 

To be honest, I'm surprised the SBC took this action against Paige Patterson.  I am hopeful for what it might mean.

https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-southwestern-theological-seminary/
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2018, 06:43:06 am »

The structure of SBC is much like that of GCC.  I would hope that, rather than lamenting the turning tide against abuse and sexism (with #metoo and #churchtoo), GCC would look at other movements much bigger than theirs and see the consequences of failing to hold people accountable.  And what happens when you try to silence victims.  

To be honest, I'm surprised the SBC took this action against Paige Patterson.  I am hopeful for what it might mean.

https://swbts.edu/news/releases/statement-southwestern-theological-seminary/

This is good news. Patterson needed to be put to pasture.

Question, though. How is the structure of SBC much like that of GCC? An SBC church operates, in part, by way of a democratic process. GCC is entirely elder-led. From a quick Google search I found this:

Quote
Second, the congregation, not the Apostles themselves, selected the seven men [to assist with food distribution]. While embryonic perhaps, this incident in the life of the early church seems to indicate a form of governance that can best be labeled "congregational" in nature. Such an attestation illustrates Southern Baptists' conviction that final decisions affecting the health and well-being of the congregation are vested in and conveyed by the church body itself. Notice that in the congregation's affirming of the seven servants, there is no calling into question or undermining of the authority or ability of the Apostles by the body, but neither do the Apostles attempt to exclude the people from any meaningful involvement in this process of conflict resolution. There clearly exists a mutual respect between the leaders and those being led, which allows for a confident trustfulness to exist because of the firm assurance on both sides that it is the Spirit of God who is directing each and every one. This conviction is the essence of the Baptist distinctive of congregational church polity.

Lest one mistakenly think such a conclusion is premature, just a few chapters later in Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council decided to send a team of emissaries to communicate to Gentile believers that there was no need to conform to Jewish ceremonialism as a part of following Christ. How were the messengers selected? Luke records, Then the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, decided to select men who were among them and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas (Acts 15:22, emphasis added). Again, this decision was not solely in the hands of the leadership, but was shared and ultimately confirmed through the entire body of believers—an increasingly diverse body given the effects of political persecution and geographical scattering (cf. Acts Cool.

GCC does not formally allow the "entire body of believers" a say in anything. So... what do you mean?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 06:45:22 am by omelianchuk » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2018, 06:53:51 am »

Quote
Today, Dr. Bingham made it clear that SWBTS denounces all abusive behavior, any behavior that enables abuse, any failure to protect the abused and any failure to safeguard those who are vulnerable to abuse.

Wow. This is huge.

Finally, it would appear as if some in leadership understand that it is their job to protect those in their spiritual care and not abuse them or allow others to abuse them by looking the other way or covering up abuse to protect a leader.

Adam,

I assumed she was referring to their complementarian approach and not governance.

But in terms of governance, GCC is one notch worse because there  is zero accountability to the members.





« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 07:05:28 am by Linda » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2018, 07:31:15 am »

To add to likely future naming confusion the Southern Baptist Convention / denomination in an effort to obscure linking its new church plants with the old line denomination has adopted "Great Commission Baptist Church" as its denominational label for its new churches to use.

Below is a cut and paste from the SBC website:

Maryland pastor Ken Fentress and seminary president Paige Patterson, at the four-month point since Southern Baptists embraced "Great Commission Baptists" as an informal name, reflect on the new descriptor. Fentress and Patterson were members of the task force appointed by then-SBC President Bryant Wright to study the possibility of an SBC name change. And both men addressed the SBC Executive Committee's February 2012 meeting when the task force recommended the option of Southern Baptists being known as "Great Commission Baptists," which subsequently was approved by messengers at the SBC's June 19-20 annual meeting in New Orleans. Fentress is senior pastor of Montrose Baptist Church in Rockville, Md.; Patterson is president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Fentress' reflections appear first, followed by Patterson's.

It seems probable to me that this will cause some level of confusion between the SBC, GCBC, and GCC. 

I actually doubt there will be much confusion. Wikipedia said GCC churches had 43,000 members in 2005, being generous they may have 75K now (I think that overstates their growth greatly - in the twin cities across all locations, I think we are not much bigger if at all then 2005). There are more Southern Baptist members in any major southern metro area than there are GCC church members in the entire US.
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2018, 07:31:47 am »

The similarities I see are centralized/internal training, heavy influence of top leaders over the entire movement, and autonomy of local churches.  And...I'd be curious how "congregational" the SBC churches generally are.  I was in a baptist church where the pastors chose all the leaders and we members "voted" on them.  After a few years I refrained from voting because I realized it was meaningless.

And, yes, I disagree with complementarian theology in general.  But even within that paradigm, there is a continuum of respect for women, some going with very restrictive and others not so much.  Let's say John Piper vs. Tim Keller.  Or Paige Patterson vs. Russell Moore.  The former in each scenario has made female submission basically a salvation issue (Piper has said it is a hill he would die on) and has used the theology as shield for misogyny.  Both Patterson and Piper have encouraged women to stay in abusive marriages and have minimized domestic abuse.  Listening to Piper discuss women in secular careers just becomes nonsensical (a female engineer can design a road that a man will drive on because she is being directive but not personally directive.  She probably shouldn't be a police officer because she will need to give personal directives to a man and that is unbiblical).  I think complementarianism has become toxic in the SBC and I do think it is extreme in GCC (which I won't expand on here but am willing to discuss).  To be clear, I know there are many people in GCC (and the SBC) who abhor abuse and objectification of women/children/the vulnerable.  But a little yeast, especially among leadership...

Reading about abuse and cover-ups, some suggest that SBC has a problem similar to the catholic church where if a pastor has a problem with abuse in one church, they handle it "internally" and the pastor is just able to go somewhere else.  The SBC claims they can't really do more because each church is autonomous.  Which is what John Hopler has claimed about the current situation at Evergreen, incidentally.  Some have requested that the SBC creates a sex offender database so that each autonomous church can be aware of potential predation issues with pastors before hiring them.  Just so no one tries to detract from the seriousness of the issue, this is not for calling anyone sweetheart.  This is for youth pastors sexually exploiting members of their youth group, the SBC confirming there is a problem, but then allowing the person to continue in leadership.  A database would not be necessary, of course, if they involved the authorities as they should.  But, the organization seems to have developed some very sick patterns that they are now being forced to face.

 
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2018, 07:33:16 am »

And perhaps I should have started a new thread but I saw the SBC was already mentioned here so I just added it.  The original post about "Great Commission" was from 2013. 


To add to likely future naming confusion the Southern Baptist Convention / denomination in an effort to obscure linking its new church plants with the old line denomination has adopted "Great Commission Baptist Church" as its denominational label for its new churches to use.

Below is a cut and paste from the SBC website:

Maryland pastor Ken Fentress and seminary president Paige Patterson, at the four-month point since Southern Baptists embraced "Great Commission Baptists" as an informal name, reflect on the new descriptor. Fentress and Patterson were members of the task force appointed by then-SBC President Bryant Wright to study the possibility of an SBC name change. And both men addressed the SBC Executive Committee's February 2012 meeting when the task force recommended the option of Southern Baptists being known as "Great Commission Baptists," which subsequently was approved by messengers at the SBC's June 19-20 annual meeting in New Orleans. Fentress is senior pastor of Montrose Baptist Church in Rockville, Md.; Patterson is president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Fentress' reflections appear first, followed by Patterson's.

It seems probable to me that this will cause some level of confusion between the SBC, GCBC, and GCC. 

I actually doubt there will be much confusion. Wikipedia said GCC churches had 43,000 members in 2005, being generous they may have 75K now (I think that overstates their growth greatly - in the twin cities across all locations, I think we are not much bigger if at all then 2005). There are more Southern Baptist members in any major southern metro area than there are GCC church members in the entire US.
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2018, 07:46:59 am »

Quote from: Rebel
Which is what John Hopler has claimed about the current situation at Evergreen, incidentally. 
Did he issue a statement?
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2018, 08:59:47 am »

The similarities I see are centralized/internal training, heavy influence of top leaders over the entire movement, and autonomy of local churches.  And...I'd be curious how "congregational" the SBC churches generally are.  I was in a baptist church where the pastors chose all the leaders and we members "voted" on them.  After a few years I refrained from voting because I realized it was meaningless.

And, yes, I disagree with complementarian theology in general.  But even within that paradigm, there is a continuum of respect for women, some going with very restrictive and others not so much.  Let's say John Piper vs. Tim Keller.  Or Paige Patterson vs. Russell Moore.  The former in each scenario has made female submission basically a salvation issue (Piper has said it is a hill he would die on) and has used the theology as shield for misogyny.  Both Patterson and Piper have encouraged women to stay in abusive marriages and have minimized domestic abuse.  Listening to Piper discuss women in secular careers just becomes nonsensical (a female engineer can design a road that a man will drive on because she is being directive but not personally directive.  She probably shouldn't be a police officer because she will need to give personal directives to a man and that is unbiblical).  I think complementarianism has become toxic in the SBC and I do think it is extreme in GCC (which I won't expand on here but am willing to discuss).  To be clear, I know there are many people in GCC (and the SBC) who abhor abuse and objectification of women/children/the vulnerable.  But a little yeast, especially among leadership...

Reading about abuse and cover-ups, some suggest that SBC has a problem similar to the catholic church where if a pastor has a problem with abuse in one church, they handle it "internally" and the pastor is just able to go somewhere else.  The SBC claims they can't really do more because each church is autonomous.  Which is what John Hopler has claimed about the current situation at Evergreen, incidentally.  Some have requested that the SBC creates a sex offender database so that each autonomous church can be aware of potential predation issues with pastors before hiring them.  Just so no one tries to detract from the seriousness of the issue, this is not for calling anyone sweetheart.  This is for youth pastors sexually exploiting members of their youth group, the SBC confirming there is a problem, but then allowing the person to continue in leadership.  A database would not be necessary, of course, if they involved the authorities as they should.  But, the organization seems to have developed some very sick patterns that they are now being forced to face.

 

I disagree with Complementarianism too, actually. I remember having somewhat awkward conversations about how my disagreement with it disqualified me from formal leadership positions. I didn't see that as a cost, I guess, but I do worry about it now somewhat in that I am looking for academic jobs at Christians schools, some of which are Baptist and seem to hold this view in high esteem. It really is a shame, since the case for women in ministry is pretty strong in my view.
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2018, 01:32:21 pm »

No, it was in an email.


Quote from: Rebel
Which is what John Hopler has claimed about the current situation at Evergreen, incidentally. 
Did he issue a statement?
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2018, 06:14:32 pm »

To the comment that the structure of the Southern Baptist Church is much like that of GCC I would very much disagree.  I attended one in Maryland in the 90's for a number of years and found very few similarities.  Unsure of what similarities are being referred to.   Within any church there is a possibility of abuse, but in GCC abuse is part of its practiced "doctrine".

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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2018, 07:15:56 pm »

I think the SBC of the 90's was different than it is now.  Paige Patterson came in 1998-1999 and began what has been called the "Conservative Resurgence" (I've read this phrase more than once, I don't know if that's what his changes were officially called).  They had female pastors before that and they were all let go in 2000.  All of the female professors were eventually fired from their seminary.  I know there are people on here who would agree with those gender roles so I'm not trying to argue that, just to say things changed dramatically around the year 2000.

 He and Judge Pressler have been found to have dealt inappropriately with abuse/assault, handling it internally and punishing victims.  That's what led to his recent stripping of benefits/title.  From what I've read, if you disagreed with him, you would be fired.  It sounds like he was a prideful authoritarian, and many of the leaders under him followed that model.  This is just what I'm reading.  But then there's audio to back some of it up (like referring to a teenage girl as "built").

I think GCC and SBC have similar structures in that they are a group of affiliated churches.  So no centralized governance as each church is autonomous.  They are similar in how they choose pastors (each church can choose whoever they want with no baseline requirements and at the discretion of the existing pastor).  But any training provided is their own, meaning there is little diversity of ideas.  This isn't to say that a pastor shouldn't be familiar with and adhere to the doctrine of his/her denomination, but there are disadvantages to training everyone the same way.  SBC runs a few seminaries and GCC offers GCLI. 

Looking over their current doctrines and theology, they look quite similar.  Other than I don't think GCC is Calvinist in the sense that salvation is only available for the chosen, and the SBC is heavily influenced by Calvinists. 

There is an SBC church in my city and while I don't choose to attend it, it's not abusive.  I have definitely seen institutional protectionism from them, an unwillingness to engage in racial issues  even though the SBC has acknowledged their history of racism as they split based on wanting to maintain slavery, and other things that are problematic for me.  But the church isn't spiritually abusive.  However, if it was, the SBC network would do nothing about it because the church is autonomous.

I hope that further explains my statement comparing the two.  I am certainly open to correction because I am not an expert on the SBC.  I attend a seminary affiliated with the General Baptist Convention and that's quite different.  I've followed the SBC for awhile but only have surface knowledge.  I'm sure there are many fine people in their churches, and I am so glad that the voices who have been calling for justice in certain areas for a long time are finally being heeded. 

To the comment that the structure of the Southern Baptist Church is much like that of GCC I would very much disagree.  I attended one in Maryland in the 90's for a number of years and found very few similarities.  Unsure of what similarities are being referred to.   Within any church there is a possibility of abuse, but in GCC abuse is part of its practiced "doctrine".


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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2018, 07:22:17 am »

Praying that you find an institution that is a good match.  I respect you for living out your conviction even though there might be a cost (and has been, as already being denied leadership)


The similarities I see are centralized/internal training, heavy influence of top leaders over the entire movement, and autonomy of local churches.  And...I'd be curious how "congregational" the SBC churches generally are.  I was in a baptist church where the pastors chose all the leaders and we members "voted" on them.  After a few years I refrained from voting because I realized it was meaningless.

And, yes, I disagree with complementarian theology in general.  But even within that paradigm, there is a continuum of respect for women, some going with very restrictive and others not so much.  Let's say John Piper vs. Tim Keller.  Or Paige Patterson vs. Russell Moore.  The former in each scenario has made female submission basically a salvation issue (Piper has said it is a hill he would die on) and has used the theology as shield for misogyny.  Both Patterson and Piper have encouraged women to stay in abusive marriages and have minimized domestic abuse.  Listening to Piper discuss women in secular careers just becomes nonsensical (a female engineer can design a road that a man will drive on because she is being directive but not personally directive.  She probably shouldn't be a police officer because she will need to give personal directives to a man and that is unbiblical).  I think complementarianism has become toxic in the SBC and I do think it is extreme in GCC (which I won't expand on here but am willing to discuss).  To be clear, I know there are many people in GCC (and the SBC) who abhor abuse and objectification of women/children/the vulnerable.  But a little yeast, especially among leadership...

Reading about abuse and cover-ups, some suggest that SBC has a problem similar to the catholic church where if a pastor has a problem with abuse in one church, they handle it "internally" and the pastor is just able to go somewhere else.  The SBC claims they can't really do more because each church is autonomous.  Which is what John Hopler has claimed about the current situation at Evergreen, incidentally.  Some have requested that the SBC creates a sex offender database so that each autonomous church can be aware of potential predation issues with pastors before hiring them.  Just so no one tries to detract from the seriousness of the issue, this is not for calling anyone sweetheart.  This is for youth pastors sexually exploiting members of their youth group, the SBC confirming there is a problem, but then allowing the person to continue in leadership.  A database would not be necessary, of course, if they involved the authorities as they should.  But, the organization seems to have developed some very sick patterns that they are now being forced to face.

 

I disagree with Complementarianism too, actually. I remember having somewhat awkward conversations about how my disagreement with it disqualified me from formal leadership positions. I didn't see that as a cost, I guess, but I do worry about it now somewhat in that I am looking for academic jobs at Christians schools, some of which are Baptist and seem to hold this view in high esteem. It really is a shame, since the case for women in ministry is pretty strong in my view.
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2018, 02:22:34 pm »

Thanks! If you want to read up on some of the reasons why I take the view I take, check out this article.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2018, 03:42:55 pm »

Thanks for sharing Adam, that was a great read even though I'm on summer break and shouldn't be reading words like ontological and metaphysical.  Wink  Much of what I've read/studied on egalitarianism has been based on biblical studies/history/language interpretation, etc. so I enjoyed this perspective.
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2018, 06:56:03 am »

It will be interesting to see what happens.  These women are brave.  Can you imagine participating in a similar rally outside of the GCC Pastor's Conference?

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sexual-misconduct/metoo-goes-church-southern-baptists-face-reckoning-over-treatment-women-n880216
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