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Author Topic: Sovereign Grace Ministries  (Read 71049 times)
maranatha
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« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2008, 11:59:32 am »

Randomous,

I wonder what thoughts you would have on this portion of scripture where Jesus said:

"When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."  Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."  The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep."
John 21:15-19

Seriously, in GCM, I always thought, "those nasty sheep.  Always wanting to fed!"

But then I saw here where Jesus told the disciples to do that very thing.
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Linda
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« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2008, 05:34:02 pm »

Terry and I like these verses on feeding the sheep from Ezekiel 34.

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1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.

7 "'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them. 11 "'For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
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lone gone
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« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2008, 03:35:22 am »

ummm,  why do you think it is that GC, SG and every other authoritative leader insist that the sheep not leave?  If they stay they will be fed, if they leave they won't be fed. Stay at the table.

How did your parents treat you? Did they let you leave the table whenever you wanted? These guys are like stern fathers.... or jealous husbands.
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Linda
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« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2008, 06:25:09 am »

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These guys are like stern fathers.... or jealous husbands.

You are correct in this assessment. Only problem is, they are not our fathers or our husbands. Biblically speaking, we have one Father in heaven and the Groom is Christ. They are only lowly brothers, equals, but differently gifted...perhaps.

Referring to the John 21 verses, I once heard R.C. Sproul give a sermon on them and all I remember from the Sermon was that he would repeat the "Feed my sheep" phrase and then follow it with a "Don't". So the messge went something like:

"Feed my sheep"
"Don't entertain my sheep."
"Feed my sheep"
"Don't starve my sheep."
"Feed my sheep"
"Don't poison my sheep."

The poison one always stuck out to me.

Also, I don't know how many of you are following the SG blog, but it is quite amazing really. The posts and stories are all so familiar, but not ours! Because of that, it helps me see the faulty reasoning behind much of the authoritarian/shepherding things, but without the "emotional" baggage added by being a former member.

If you have a minute, read the membership covenant where you authorize the pastors to "pursue" you after you leave the church and also, if you leave you agree that they can inform other churches that they aren't finished with you yet (my words, I believe theirs were that they were still "disciplining" you). You also give the pastor permission to share anything he heard from you at a private counseling session with all the pastors and anyone who might be part of the solution or part of the problem (which means anyone, really!).

Anyway, if you have some free time, it's worth keeping up with.
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steelgirl
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« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2008, 09:54:26 am »

Quote from: Linda
Quote
These guys are like stern fathers.... or jealous husbands.

You are correct in this assessment. Only problem is, they are not our fathers or our husbands. Biblically speaking, we have one Father in heaven and the Groom is Christ. They are only lowly brothers, equals, but differently gifted...perhaps.

Brothers rather immature themselves in their walk.   Looking back and it got back to the elder.  A rather hard situation.  When that smallgroup disbanded I must have been too messed up.



Also, I don't know how many of you are following the SG blog, but it is quite amazing really. The posts and stories are all so familiar, but not ours! Because of that, it helps me see the faulty reasoning behind much of the authoritarian/shepherding things, but without the "emotional" baggage added by being a former member.

If you have a minute, read the membership covenant where you authorize the pastors to "pursue" you after you leave the church and also, if you leave you agree that they can inform other churches that they aren't finished with you yet (my words, I believe theirs were that they were still "disciplining" you). You also give the pastor permission to share anything he heard from you at a private counseling session with all the pastors and anyone who might be part of the solution or part of the problem (which means anyone, really!).

That is horrible.  In my present church one of the questions on the application for membership is have you been disciplined and what are the details.  There are things like immoral things worth being disciplined.   I recall somebody who more recently came out the GCM church I left 3 yrs ago wondering how to answer that.  I don't know if this church really became more abusive after a big exodus in 04.  I don't know this person that well.  Perhaps I was disciplined in a way for not having a stable job even though I worked every damn chance I had to work.  7 yrs ago one of the ways to be disciplined was refusing and I wonder if some people thought I refused to work which was anything from the truth.
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« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2008, 11:06:39 am »

Quote from: "steelgirl"
When were you in GC?

early 1980s
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steelgirl
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« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2008, 11:44:40 am »

Quote from: "MidnightRider"
Quote from: "steelgirl"
When were you in GC?

early 1980s


I don't recall the leaders not encouraging me to read not to study the word for myself. Some people in the group went to Bible Study Fellowship. The first message I heard when I visited in 1999 the elder encouraged people to spend time in the word.
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randomous
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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2008, 08:26:24 pm »

Good passage maranatha.  I think we're really getting to the heart of the issue here.  I'll try to think about this, I'm traveling the next week or so.  

My initial thoughts are that I totally agree, obviously, that shepherds are responsible for the feeding of their sheep.  To look at the parable closer, how does a shepherd do that?  He takes them to a field, guides and leads them where to go, and I suppose if one's sick then he may hand-feed it.  I think the problem is that most Christians expect to be hand-fed, and somehow expect a solo pastor to feed them enough for a week in a one-hour period on sunday morning.  When you really think about it, that is just absurd.  It's obviously not going to work, and it's not what the parable describes.  So the pastors role in the parable seems to me to be to guide them to food, tell them where to eat and drink, where the good water is, get them away from the poison mushrooms, etc.  Hopefully there's some discipleship structure in a church that will allow people to help each other be fed, be accountable (help each other watch out for those shrooms), and help them learn to get into the word themselves and to pray.  

Basically what I'm trying is, any Christian who thinks that they're going to get the food they need in a one-hour a week service (assuming that's even the point of a worship service), is a seriously deceived Christian.
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« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2008, 05:59:03 am »

While all scripture is good, I think that Jesus was trying to teach Peter about love for God above love for others and not about feeding sheep. In the Greek text, the words for "love" are different. (Agape vs. Phileo) Feeding the sheep is secondary to the love lesson.

Reading too much into a parable or an analogy can lead you away from the truth as I have discovered  for myself.

A yearning for "learning" can lead a person into the position of
"always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth". Seeming to know a lot about God can appear desirable and self satisfying. I should know since that is what I did for years. So did the Jews,( both Sadducees and Pharisees) so did the Scholastics of the medieval Roman church, so did "dead Orthodoxy" after the Reformation, same for the main line protestant churches of today.

The truths I am now learning that are of utmost importance are these:

A.  After being enlightened that Christ is my redeemer, that I am helpless to do anything in my own strength,and that God will bring to pass what is to be,  any importance I attach to my accomplishments fades away.

B. Single minded dependance upon God in the middle of a massively confusing world (having the faith of a little child) and becoming comfortable in the midst of uncertainty is a hard thing to learn... yet it is essential that I practice them and apply them to my interactions with others, both believers and non-believers.
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« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2008, 12:48:23 pm »

Quote from: "randomous"
Good passage maranatha.  I think we're really getting to the heart of the issue here.  I'll try to think about this, I'm traveling the next week or so.  

My initial thoughts are that I totally agree, obviously, that shepherds are responsible for the feeding of their sheep.  To look at the parable closer, how does a shepherd do that?  He takes them to a field, guides and leads them where to go, and I suppose if one's sick then he may hand-feed it.  I think the problem is that most Christians expect to be hand-fed, and somehow expect a solo pastor to feed them enough for a week in a one-hour period on sunday morning.  When you really think about it, that is just absurd.  It's obviously not going to work, and it's not what the parable describes.  So the pastors role in the parable seems to me to be to guide them to food, tell them where to eat and drink, where the good water is, get them away from the poison mushrooms, etc.  Hopefully there's some discipleship structure in a church that will allow people to help each other be fed, be accountable (help each other watch out for those shrooms), and help them learn to get into the word themselves and to pray.  

Basically what I'm trying is, any Christian who thinks that they're going to get the food they need in a one-hour a week service (assuming that's even the point of a worship service), is a seriously deceived Christian.


So I guess what is the point of Church? Why go and listen to a sermon or worship with music? If you are a "mature" Christian and can find the good pastures by yourself, why do you need a shepherd to look after you? Please don't say fellowship either. I had much better fellowship over the sloppy-joe-after-church-lunch than I actually did at church. In this line of reasoning it is much more logical to say. "Well, you have finally matured as a Christian so I guess you graduate from church. You don't need to be hand fed...you've got it all figured out. Have a nice life!"

Here is my personal experience with GCx churches. We lived on a tiny corner of the pasture which was roped of with very clear boundaries. Instead of wandering and grazing were the grass was best, we had to stay in our corner and eat the same grass Sunday after Sunday. After a while of being in the same place, we start eating other stuff...like our own poo. But, we were told, the stale, repetitive grass was much better and safer than that other grass in the rest of the pasture. Who knows what could be lurking out there…bad mushrooms, sheep from other farms, sharp rocks, wolves...terrible things. Sure, there may be some great grazing out there, but why take the risk? We need to change the pasture first, make it safe like our little trampled corner over here.

Thankfully, I spent a lot of time gazing fondly at the bigger pasture, and one day I actually stepped outside. Nothing killed me; I was shocked. Freedom and Frolicking! Here's to uninhibited grazing!

Cheers!
Gene
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steelgirl
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« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2008, 08:08:25 pm »

Quote
So I guess what is the point of Church? Why go and listen to a sermon or worship with music? If you are a "mature" Christian and can find the good pastures by yourself, why do you need a shepherd to look after you? Please don't say fellowship either. I had much better fellowship over the sloppy-joe-after-church-lunch than I actually did at church. In this line of reasoning it is much more logical to say. "Well, you have finally matured as a Christian so I guess you graduate from church. You don't need to be hand fed...you've got it all figured out. Have a nice life!"

Here is my personal experience with GCx churches. We lived on a tiny corner of the pasture which was roped of with very clear boundaries. Instead of wandering and grazing were the grass was best, we had to stay in our corner and eat the same grass Sunday after Sunday. After a while of being in the same place, we start eating other stuff...like our own poo. But, we were told, the stale, repetitive grass was much better and safer than that other grass in the rest of the pasture. Who knows what could be lurking out there…bad mushrooms, sheep from other farms, sharp rocks, wolves...terrible things. Sure, there may be some great grazing out there, but why take the risk? We need to change the pasture first, make it safe like our little trampled corner over here.

Thankfully, I spent a lot of time gazing fondly at the bigger pasture, and one day I actually stepped outside. Nothing killed me; I was shocked. Freedom and Frolicking! Here's to uninhibited grazing!

Cheers!
Gene


A lot of stuff happening to me personally for 2 yrs.  I then start learning that people are leaving for this other church.  My discipler/mentor says that a lot of people leave this campus area church to escape accoutability.  There was this rebellious side of me that wanted to check it out, especially after all the stuff.  I then go on and off to where I now attend while still attending the stale grass of GCM
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jehu
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« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2008, 12:21:54 am »

Somebody should have told Paul that GC had grass, he would have stayed.
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Linda
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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2011, 06:51:30 am »

As some of you are aware, GCM has a "doppelganger" in the form of Sovereign Grace Churches. They have a similar structure (elders appointed by elders with no meaningful accountability to the church members).

They also have a similar forum for ex-members to discuss problems.

You may be interested to note that the head honcho, C. J. Mahaney, stepped down for an indefinite time to reflect upon his offenses. (Offenses that he had been ignoring for many years). This would be the equivalent of one of the head honchos of GC stepping down and saying that this forum was instrumental in pointing out their sin of pride. So, if it's not a political move on the part of Mahaney, it's huge.

Here is the link to his letter. Of course, when you are caught with your hand in the cookie jar and it is made public on the Internet, only time will determine the sincerity of the apology:

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2307

As this was hitting, some other info came into light. Several documents had found their way to the internet. I have barely looked at them, but what you see when you look over them is leaders without accountability (except to each other which as we know is not meaningful accountability) who demanded obedience and agreement from other elders and church members. If anyone disagreed, they were called slanderers. You see shunning and letter writing with lots of "spiritual" sounding rebukes, same old, same old. Apparently, these organizations are a dime a dozen.

Here is the link to the documentation that resulted in CJ's stepping down.

http://www.scribd.com/sgmwikileaks
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 07:36:12 am by Linda » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2011, 07:15:19 am »

I read the "apology" at the link provided.  Three comments, or are they commentaries?:

1) the "apology" is ONLY to fellow pastors and leaders throughout the SGM movement and NOT to the rank and file congregant (is THAT really humility???)

2) the letter is practically a carbon copy of the announcement that John Piper gave.  If Piper really is his prototype then we can see a short period away from public leadership after this showy flash of "repentance," virtually no specifics as to what repentance really will have amounted to, and a full return to leadership some months later as if nothing had ever happened. 

3) Why did he get "serious rebukes" over the course of "many years" and take NO ACTION before now?Huh  Would any elder in GC or SGM allow a congregant to be unresponsive for years while getting numerous serious rebukes, or would such a person be disciplined out of the movement after just one or two???

Ugh...the abuse and privilege of celebrity Christian leadership...makes my skin crawl...
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Linda
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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2011, 07:22:54 am »

A little background.

CJ Mahaney and Larry Tomczak were the founders of Sovereign Grace back in the 70's. They were Catholic charismatic leaders living in Maryland. At the time, the group was called "People of Destiny International" (PDI). Rick Whitney mentions them in one of his articles. GC leaders and PDI leaders were friends. Interesting to note.

In the late 90's Tomczak left Sovereign Grace. He left partly because of theological differences with the group's Calvinist teaching. Another reason for his departure was that his 12 year old son was in some type of rebellion and he was considered unfit for leadership.

Now, this is where things get hazy for me in terms of the history. My husband has followed this forum for years and knows way more, but I will cut to the chase. The second link I gave (the one with the documentation) was written by a 30+ year elder of SG. He kept detailed records and did research on things that didn't set right. The "documentation" was not released by him to the Internet, it was a letter sent to CJ Mahaney and I believe the elders. It's unclear how the info got online. (When it says "you" it means CJ).

The most damning part (if true) is the phone conversation that was between CJ and Larry. Summary: Larry was leaving because his son was rebellious and he disagreed with the Calvinistic leanings. CJ had gotten Larry's 12 year old son to confess his sins before the elders. Larry was told by CJ that he could not tell people he was leaving for theological reasons, but only for character reasons (he was a father with a son in rebellion). CJ told Larry that if he mentioned any theological reasons for departure he would make public the sins of the 12 year old that were confessed in confidence.

Here is the link to the conversation. It's in Part 3: Concluding Remarks. Starting at page 139. It's called blackmail.

http://www.scribd.com/sgmwikileaks

I wonder how many people in high control groups like this, are afraid to speak because of fear that their confessed and forgiven sins will be made public? This case is particularly wicked because CJ states that if the dad doesn't do what he wants he will reveal, not the dad's sins, but the son's confessed sin.

EAS, I was typing when you were. Good points. I thought of the Piper leave of absence, as well, but the difference, as far as I know is that JP hadn't been accused of heavy handed leadership for years and suddenly decided he needed to think about it. BTW, why do these pastors always need to step down (at full pay I would imagine) in the middle of summer for a long period of time to reflect upon their navels? A normal sinner would not be afforded that luxury! Normal sinners have to work their jobs and repent at the same time!
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« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2011, 07:45:43 am »

Linda, good background on Mahaney.

Linda, you asked in the first version of your post (before you edited it) if Piper said anything about Mahaney.  I have no idea.  I no longer "follow" Piper as I have found his Christian Hedonism theology to be unscriptural and self-promotional and his celebrity status seems to have given him an iron wall against such questions (valid or otherwise).  Yes, by the way, Piper has often been accused by his congregants of heavy handed leadership (pride)--this was especially noticeable during the church growth phase with multiple campuses where many wanted live pastors to preach at the geogprahically separate churches, but the pastor decided to have his own vidoe feeds piped in of him preaching at the mother church.

My comment about his letter being a prototype was meant to demonstrate that if feels like Mahaney has used Piper's own "apology" letter as a template (they sound almost identical in terms of general content and tone).  If Mahaney really is following his lead, he will "step down" for a couple of months (read that as: take an extended vacation from responsibility and the heat of the spotlight) and then return to take up full leadership as if nothing had ever happened at all but with the added appearance of humility personified.  

To test Mahaney's (or anyone else's sincerity) take your eyes off the autobiographical "self assessments" which are published to world (as if they are press releases) and look to the changes made in ministry and style.  Does the leader return to full leadership after a short break, or do they humbly hand over the reigns to those whom they have diligently trained to replace them?   Do they give the congregation more authority and more responsibility in the ministry, or does that remain essentially unchanged?  

Actions will definately speak louder than news releases.
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Linda
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2011, 07:50:29 am »

EAS, I just realized that you were referring to Piper's leave of absence last year. I misunderstood at first. I'm not into the Christian hedonism thing, either, but I have benefited from Piper. One thing about his teaching is that every time I leave a service, I am thinking about God. Not Piper, or commitment to his church. I really have no idea why he associates with Mahaney. I think he has been taken in. The guy must be charming.

Quote from: CJ Mahaney
Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me and informed me about offenses they have with me as well as other leaders in Sovereign Grace. These charges are serious and they have been very grieving to read. These charges are not related to any immorality or financial impropriety, but this doesn’t minimize their serious nature, which include various expressions of pride, unentreatability, deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy.

EAS, I reread the letter after your comments. Wow.

As you mentioned, this letter was written to the pastors. Is he not responsible to the congregation? No, of course not in this system. In these groups leaders only answer to other leaders. I remember when I told MD a pastor could have had an affair and the congregation would not know about it and he said, "I'm sure it's happened."

And then, the obvious, "Over the last few years...". Wow. The clue should be that something (the hundreds of pages of documentation that went online, perhaps?) suddenly caused him to come forward. I really want to believe he is sincere. It's harder to believe it when someone is "caught" and confesses, but as Kris from the sgm forum said, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." This is one step. I guess it would be prudent to see if he takes another. I hope he does. I'm not holding my breath.
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2011, 09:14:30 am »

EAS,
I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean to say that Piper had never been accused of heavy handedness (although I have never heard any accusations like that). I would assume most leaders are. What I was thinking about was the forum with some pretty specific examples of how things were handled by the leadership at SG and the tens of thousands who have read or commented there. With numbers that big, one couldn't help but wonder why CJ waited "years" to respond.

Also, about the Bethlehem church plants. I never heard about any controversy. If there was one, Piper lost because he rotates and preaches live at all of them. He is always live on Saturday night at the downtown Minneapolis church. This is where the video equipment is housed for the tapings. On Sunday mornings he rotates and preaches live from all locations every third Sunday. Even when guest speakers are there, they are live on "schedule". For example, D. A. Carson was a guest speaker a couple years ago and he preached from the Burnsville High School auditorium, since that was the week their week.
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2011, 10:06:19 am »

Here is the link on the Whitney site referencing CJ Mahaney and his church Covenant Life. It's article #125.

http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/articles.html

In case they try to distance themselves from it by removing the post here is the intro.

Quote from: Rich Whitney
The following was put together by the pastors of Covenant Life, a church out of Gaithersburg, Maryland.  We knew some of these guys when we were there in Maryland and we appreciated their example.  I believe J.[Josh] Harris, C. J. and Bob Kauflin are a couple of their current pastors.  This church practices plurality and what these elders have put together in this doc is very sobering and challenging.

Of course, he finds a need to mention the plurality part! And, of course, by plurality he means oligarchy. There is no meaningful accountability in these groups. The leadership is a band of brothers. They are committed to protecting each other. They are shepherds that care more for other shepherds than they do the sheep.
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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2011, 10:09:35 am »

What in the world is "Christian Hedonism"? 

Many many Rock Stars (as I call them) in the world of churches/religions....
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