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Author Topic: brucegerencser.net evangelical-pastor-mark-darling  (Read 3132 times)
OneOfMany
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« on: July 11, 2018, 02:38:30 pm »

Another article on Mark Darling's resignation has popped up on Google. There is a comment section.

https://brucegerencser.net/2018/07/evangelical-pastor-mark-darling-resigns-over-sexual-misconduct-allegations/
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2018, 06:01:37 pm »

Oh, DEFINITELY read the comments.  That guy is spot on with this stuff. 
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OneOfMany
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2018, 07:37:09 pm »

He will write articles as long as he has facts. So if you have anything to send him that is factual he might write it up.
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2018, 08:25:24 pm »

I did notice the author is now an atheist, which is not a problem for me, but will be enough reason from some to dismiss what he has to say.

Interestingly, in my Christian Social Ethics course (not to keep bringing it up but it's been really interesting and pertinent) our discussion on wisdom concludes that "the world" is not devoid of wisdom.  The writers of the Old Testament included wisdom from neighboring cultures.  There is wisdom, and then there is divine revelation.  I don't know why all of The Rock people think that secular voices do not have anything to offer the church, especially where the church has failed.  Well, I do understand why, but it's a weak and flawed logic and not even biblical.

This quote might help explain what I'm talking about a little, for what it's worth. 

"Chokhmah is the truth we discover; Torah is the truth we inherit. Chokhmah is the universal heritage of humankind; Torah is the specific heritage of Israel. Chokhmah is what we attain by being in the image of God; Torah is what guides Jews as the people of God. Chokhmah is acquired by seeing and reasoning; Torah is received by listening and responding. Chokhmah tells us what is; Torah tells us what ought to be. Chokhmah is about facts; Torah is about commands. Chokhmah yields descriptive, scientific laws; Torah yields prescriptive, behavioural laws. Chokhmah is about creation; Torah is about revelation." (Rabbi Jonathan Sacks)

I laughed when my professor said that there are two extremes on how people interact with the world, and then said that the exact verses Rick Whitney uses in his paper are the proof texts for people who have no developed theology of culture (1 John 2:15Ė17 & James 4:4). http://ae32b6f7a6ad6f5ae1f0-a966d7fcbad4fbcd7d1dccf3fbabbb92.r98.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded/g/0e4793196_1490123382_gcli-2017-b1-s2-10-not-loving-the-world.pdf
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Huldah
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 07:25:18 am »

Thank you for the link, Rebel, but reading that paper made me angry. I'm talking about the part where he speaks critically of people who acquire wealth but don't give it to the church. That's pretty irritating, coming from a leader of a movement where at least one church (ECC) is sitting on about four million dollars' worth of investments. Aren't there any people in that church who are struggling to keep up with medical bills, rent, or utilities? Is there no one who's putting off necessary dental work, or replacing their balding tires, because they don't have the money?

Or, if American Christians are too wealthy to have legitimate needs, what about building a well in India or a school in Africa?

An emergency fund for a church is a smart idea, but multi-million dollar investments? Isn't that kind of, um, worldly?
 
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Mango
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 08:46:42 am »

Oh, DEFINITELY read the comments.  That guy is spot on with this stuff. 
How nice that you and Linda can find such common cause and kinship with a man who's stated mission is "helping people escape the pernicious grip of Evangelical Christianity." Congrats
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 09:06:11 am »

It doesn't surprise me that atheists and unbelievers are good at sniffing out and pointing out hypocrisy.

The comments are worth reading, as others pointed out. It looks like some people at Evergreen are saying that the pastors actually do not believe that Mark did anything wrong. His offenses have been reduced to conversations that must have been taken out of context. And the one who posted to praise Mark Darling (who probably speaks for many) said that it is unfair that there was only one investigator. A second investigator could have interpreted things in a different way.
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Huldah
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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 10:07:57 am »

And the one who posted to praise Mark Darling (who probably speaks for many) said that it is unfair that there was only one investigator. A second investigator could have interpreted things in a different way.

I saw that remark. Amazing how quickly they've thrown their own hired attorney under the bus.
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Linda
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« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 10:16:18 am »

Oh, DEFINITELY read the comments.  That guy is spot on with this stuff. 
How nice that you and Linda can find such common cause and kinship with a man who's stated mission is "helping people escape the pernicious grip of Evangelical Christianity." Congrats
What in the world are you talking about?
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Linda
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« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 10:53:41 am »

Oh, DEFINITELY read the comments.  That guy is spot on with this stuff. 
How nice that you and Linda can find such common cause and kinship with a man who's stated mission is "helping people escape the pernicious grip of Evangelical Christianity." Congrats

Also, I believe your statement would come under the category of "genetic fallacy".

"A genetic fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when a claim is accepted or rejected based on the source of the evidence, rather than on the quality or applicability of the evidence. It is also a line of reasoning in which a perceived defect in the origin of a claim or thing is taken to be evidence that discredits the claim or thing itself. The fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit."

Aside from the fact that I haven't had time to read the entire post or comments, much less comment on them, the idea that if I agree with a point made by a proclaimed atheist, I am somehow in agreement with everything the man stands for is ridiculous and a fallacious attempt to manipulate thinking.
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Mango
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« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2018, 11:10:13 am »

A. After further review, I think Rebel simply cut and paste a comment from you into that thread. If so, I apologize for including you in that comment.

B. Your last comment was a straw-man, as I did not say you are, "somehow in agreement with everything the man stands for." I simply indicated common cause.
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Linda
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« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2018, 11:33:10 am »

A. After further review, I think Rebel simply cut and paste a comment from you into that thread. If so, I apologize for including you in that comment.

B. Your last comment was a straw-man, as I did not say you are, "somehow in agreement with everything the man stands for." I simply indicated common cause.

You brought my name into a discussion I didn't participate in.

Then, you said and still say that participating in a discussion on a blog of a declared atheist whose goal is to help "people escape the pernicious grip of Evangelical Christianity" "indicates" a common cause with that person. That would be a type of genetic fallacy.

You certainly can't assume I am in kinship with the man whose blog I haven't read in full or commented on. Also, you can't even assume Rebel is in kinship with him. There is no basis for saying he/she agrees with the blogger's atheist/anti evangelical Christianity position.

"If so, I apologize..." Is that an apology?

Also, not sure you know what a straw man is.
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Mango
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« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2018, 12:12:14 pm »

Here is part of the comment that caused the confusion:

To me: ďLinda, disagreeing isnít hate. Even I know that. Youíve spent more time on this website than you ever spent in a GCC church or listening to my father speak. You have reserved much of your ire for a man you barely even had any conversations with, and youíve dished out all your advice and warnings having never founded or a led a church on any conceivable level. This shows empirically that youíre both filled with pride AND hate while simultaneously caught up in a saviorís complex the likes of which Iíve never seen before.Ē

Are you indeed Linda? I'll assume so and it does appear as though Rebel cut and paste comments from you. And after reading some of your comments here, I have a deep understanding of what a straw-man is.
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Linda
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2018, 12:14:25 pm »

I agree. In that post, Jeromy created a straw man. Thanks.

Actually, itís technically a very descriptive and perfectly mean bit of ad hominem.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2018, 02:11:17 pm »

Mango,  I very clearly included the forum link to Linda's comment summarizing how Jeomy was nasty to many different people and intimidated victims. I was not trying to pose as Linda nor imply that she was involved in commenting on Bruce's blog.

I apologize to Linda if she does not want her comment posted there and can remove it.  My thought is that I know whatever I post here can be read and shared by many... but on second thought I should have checked first before sharing it outside the forum.

I used her summary because it's a helpful illustration of the deflection of any criticism when some have put a man on a pedestal.  I mean really, I'm sure you saw the #markdarlingismyhero comments on Facebook.  Now we see how people are treated when they disagree.

Here is part of the comment that caused the confusion:

To me: ďLinda, disagreeing isnít hate. Even I know that. Youíve spent more time on this website than you ever spent in a GCC church or listening to my father speak. You have reserved much of your ire for a man you barely even had any conversations with, and youíve dished out all your advice and warnings having never founded or a led a church on any conceivable level. This shows empirically that youíre both filled with pride AND hate while simultaneously caught up in a saviorís complex the likes of which Iíve never seen before.Ē

Are you indeed Linda? I'll assume so and it does appear as though Rebel cut and paste comments from you. And after reading some of your comments here, I have a deep understanding of what a straw-man is.
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Linda
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2018, 03:03:05 pm »

Mango,  I very clearly included the forum link to Linda's comment summarizing how Jeomy was nasty to many different people and intimidated victims. I was not trying to pose as Linda nor imply that she was involved in commenting on Bruce's blog.

I apologize to Linda if she does not want her comment posted there and can remove it.  My thought is that I know whatever I post here can be read and shared by many... but on second thought I should have checked first before sharing it outside the forum.

I used her summary because it's a helpful illustration of the deflection of any criticism when some have put a man on a pedestal.  I mean really, I'm sure you saw the #markdarlingismyhero comments on Facebook.  Now we see how people are treated when they disagree.

Here is part of the comment that caused the confusion:

To me: ďLinda, disagreeing isnít hate. Even I know that. Youíve spent more time on this website than you ever spent in a GCC church or listening to my father speak. You have reserved much of your ire for a man you barely even had any conversations with, and youíve dished out all your advice and warnings having never founded or a led a church on any conceivable level. This shows empirically that youíre both filled with pride AND hate while simultaneously caught up in a saviorís complex the likes of which Iíve never seen before.Ē

Are you indeed Linda? I'll assume so and it does appear as though Rebel cut and paste comments from you. And after reading some of your comments here, I have a deep understanding of what a straw-man is.
No worries, Rebel.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2018, 06:03:53 pm »

Mango, you must be having a rough day based on your participation on the forum today.

Unlike people in a "closed group" (i.e. cult), I am able to find commonalities with other people who bear the image of God regardless of their religious affiliation.  I am able to discern which contributions have value, regardless of if I agree with everything else they say.  I am able to evaluate opinions based on their own merit.  I understand you need to categorize people as good/bad and therefore part of the in-group or out-group.  So you can go ahead and put Bruce and me in whatever categories you need to be able to understand the world. I don't mind.

I do share his goal with one added word: "helping people escape the pernicious grip of ABUSIVE evangelical Christianity."  I have no desire to pull people away from non-abusive Evangelical Christianity.  However, to mistreat people using the name of God IS particularly egregious to me.  Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, since you seem to only want to call out forum members rather than those who have committed and covered up pastoral sexual misconduct.  But hey, you do you. 


Oh, DEFINITELY read the comments.  That guy is spot on with this stuff. 
How nice that you and Linda can find such common cause and kinship with a man who's stated mission is "helping people escape the pernicious grip of Evangelical Christianity." Congrats
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