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Author Topic: The Roots of Evergreen  (Read 8888 times)
Linda
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« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2018, 10:16:26 am »

Quote from: Shamednomore
I  needed a lot of therapy to heal and forgive and unlearn shame and brainwashing.  I have learned who I am as a human being in Godís eyes and no one can take that from me.  I have been at my current church for over 8 years.  I started attending because it was so big that I could easily slip in and out of service without being noticed.  Although I have been involved womenís studies, couples groups, and childrenís ministries, I am still cautious of building close relationships with people in my church.  I donít know if I can ever allow myself to be vulnerable like that again.

I think this forum is very important in healing and moving forward for those of us who have felt the heavy-handedness of gc authority or gc doctrine.  It is unlearning one gospel to relearn a new one.  It is also very important for me to know others just like me that left gc but Are STILL Christians.  WE DIDNT ABANDON OUR FAITH.  God isnít found ONLY in a gc Church, god is with Christians wherever they go.  God can have a deep relationship with a woman without speaking through her authority-He will speak directly to her! I have forgiven the people from my past that hurt me and I hold no bitterness because they have asked for forgiveness and they no longer behave the same way.  Even if they hadnít asked my forgiveness, I now believe they were just trying to follow gc doctrine to save themselves.  They were manipulated and brainwashed as well.  

Shamednomore,

Your post was thoughtful and helpful.

I think GCC defenders would be wise to pause and understand that many here have had to undergo months of therapy to process their GC experience. Others have found help in this forum by finding they are not alone in the difficulty they have processing their time in a GC church. It is not normal for hundreds of people to need counseling because they left a church/denomination.

Also, I agree with araignee19 that you might want to copy and move this post to The Healing Forum, so people like Greentruth cannot debate your experience and attempt to shame you.

Greentruth,

What I see is no attempt at understanding, no compassion, and very little grace in your comments.

Also, don't you feel an ounce of sadness that people have been damaged by the teaching and practice of this movement of churches for many, many years?

Finally, you seemed to lump "Wrestling" in with the "regular" posters here, but it seems to me that he/she has posted very little and those posts have been seeking understanding and truth, yet you suggest he/she is trying to damage a church. It's troubling.



 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 10:19:33 am by Linda » Logged

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Greentruth
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« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2018, 10:49:08 am »

Prince? Cranking out babies? Thatís a horrible distortion of actuality in the highest degree. It actually made me laugh at just the concept which you paint. I havenít seen it taken quite this low even on this form

Linda
I donít keep track of who is on this form Linda, but we are at the same circular spot of going over and over the fact some did experince pain at a GC Church, and so the form will create pain for ALL GC members because of it. We all only see and hear one side here, just as in Suzanne and others accusations. You say six or seven or whatever number comes up is absolute evidence with one side being told, but thousands who disagree means nothing.You say itís not fair to defend what we KNOW for fact, yet you are allowed absolute truth of matters from one side of each and every story?  Somewhat hypocritical from my view. But, here Iím drawn into the usual circular discussion that does no good. I should know better by now to try and bring some truth and reality here.
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Linda
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« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2018, 11:48:01 am »

Quote from: Greentruth
I donít keep track of who is on this form Linda, but we are at the same circular spot of going over and over the fact some did experince pain at a GC Church, and so the form will create pain for ALL GC members because of it.

Well then, it might be wise not to suggest that someone has "distorted the truth" when you haven't paid any attention to who the person is.

Also, I don't understand what you mean by the form (I assume you mean "forum" when you say form) will create pain for all GC members. Are you saying it pains them that people have been hurt (which would be a good thing), or that it pains them that people are speaking critically of the teaching/practice at GC churches?

Quote
We all only see and hear one side here, just as in Suzanne and others accusations. You say six or seven or whatever number comes up is absolute evidence with one side being told, but thousands who disagree means nothing.You say itís not fair to defend what we KNOW for fact, yet you are allowed absolute truth of matters from one side of each and every story?

When did I say this? As far as I am aware, 9 women have come forward with similar stories. A couple may not wish to come forward with their stories publicly. I think 5 have publicly stated their story. Victim A, Victim C, Suzanne, Natalie, and Loey. This is disturbing. Make no mistake, there will be no evidence (there never is in cases of abuse like this, it is always a he said/she said because there never will be witnesses other than the 2 people involved). Nevertheless, in the Church the standard for pastors is different. It goes with the office. Above reproach.

It doesn't matter what "thousands" believe, what matters is what happened. Looking in from the outside, what I see is a pattern of alleged abuse that happened over a lengthy period of time involving many people (some of whom don't even know each other), yet all having a similar story. You do not KNOW for a fact what happened. Neither do I. What I do know is that there are enough allegations that this story should be of concern to any who hear it.

I also know that the victims coming forward should not be called liars, crazies, criminals as has been suggested by those who wish to dismiss the allegations. It's called victim blaming and it should have no place in the Church.
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Wrestling
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« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2018, 11:52:08 am »

ShamedNoMore said:
Quote
It is also very important for me to know others just like me that left gc but Are STILL Christians.  WE DIDNT ABANDON OUR FAITH.  God isnít found ONLY in a gc Church, god is with Christians wherever they go.  God can have a deep relationship with a woman without speaking through her authority-He will speak directly to her!  I have forgiven the people from my past that hurt me and I hold no bitterness because they have asked for forgiveness and they no longer behave the same way.  Even if they hadnít asked my forgiveness, I now believe they were just trying to follow gc doctrine to save themselves.  They were manipulated and brainwashed as well

SNM,  I hope you donít have to go to the end of your rope to find the spirit of peace and love through Jesus. It is so awesome, and once you have Him, no one can separate you. I will pray you find that peace, as I have.

GreenTruth, the audacity of this response astounds me. Did you read what she said? Did you seek to understand? Itís kind and lovely to pray peace for her, but what she is saying is that she rejoices in the truth of the love of Jesus even still! My goodness. This is very shocking to me. I am so sorry you also had a bad church experience. But that doesnít invalidate SNMís experience at the church which you say brought you healing. Iím glad you found healing at a GC church. But that doesnít mean they havenít hurt a lot of people along the way just as your Lutheran Church did.

I could say the same to you. The audacity to distort the truth thousands have lived at ECC. Some have experienced hurt at ECC in the SAME manner as proposed here, yet as a saved Christian we can discern the cause from the Church, our parents and ourselves without seeking to destroy one element of the whole truth. There is a strength of bitterness on this form I have never seen anywhere. It comes through loud and clear, trust me. This form will turn a few away from ECC, and Church as a whole, but most are just seriously grieved at the assault and damage they see being done to their Church.  If this is your goal, you are succeeding, sadly.

You know, Iím not really seeking to understand you either, and I am sorry. I am someone who has felt the true pain of being in and leaving this movement of churches, and so itís really hard for me to understand someone who defends them so vehemently. In an effort to understand you better, I would need to know more of your story. To meet you in person, to learn about who you love and why you love them. This is why this forum was never a place for debate. I am at a loss. I just think if you know the pain I see and that I have felt, you wouldnít speak so forcefully and you wouldnít use the word bitterness in the manner you do. The bitterness is there for a reason, and itís hard to let go for a reason. You defend this place for a reason, you love this movement for a reason. We wonít ever understand this about each other because we arenít making the effort to truly understand one another. And Iím a part of that, and I am sorry.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2018, 12:43:55 pm »

G_Prince, thanks for acknowledging this.  I think the gender-related issue was the most damaging for me.  But I also think it is bad for men for many reasons. 



I will freely admit that there are many people, primarily men, who thrive in the GCx environment. For whatever reason, the top-down militaristic chain of command really works for them. For woman and children, however, it can be a nightmare (depending on how closely individual family units adhere to the churchís teachings). Like Shamednomore (thanks so much for your sharing your experiences <3), I had an intensive GCx upbringing, though much different because of my gender. Boys are taught from a young age that they are the voice of God on earth and are raised to be leaders. Of course there is plenty of shaming, shunning, and snitching that go on to whip you into GCxís ideal of masculinity. However, some really embrace this role and, I think, sincerely do well in the church.

Iíve heard enough horror stories from women in GCx (e.g. the present MD situation, etc.) to know that women have it much worse. I find it hard to imagine that any woman ďhappilyĒ living the GCx lifestyle could truly be mentally well. But maybe there are women out there who really do enjoy being submissive to their husbands, being sexually available 24/7, and cranking out kids as fast as their bodies will allow.  

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Greentruth
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« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2018, 01:43:57 pm »

Wrestling

Thank you for the understanding and humble reply. I never looked at this forum until the Suzanne issue came up. Even then I watched it for three months before taking part in sharing what I experienced. I realize there are always two sides to every issue, and wanted to completely understand the side coming from here. First off, itís very mixed, some with authentic goals to share their issue, and then there are those with much bitterness and say anything to distort and manipulate every stance brought up to defend what most of us know as truth. I have shared my story, and I share some of my history. I quit even looking at this forum as much of what is shared is twisted and manipulated attempts of some trying to share their side. We all get hurt in life, and how we handle it can dictate our life. In my opinion no one here has been hurt any worse than I have. I chose to move on and love those who hurt me, and to reach out to who I can help.If you knew me you would know Iím a very caring and easy going person who tries to see the good in every situation. Very little has angered me in my life other than something that purposely tries to hurt others, and then I will give voice to that. This forum angers me, as it is hurting many I know under false and manipulated outbursts under the disguise of warning ghosts ECC attenders. I will say this, which I have held back for the reason it too will be manipulated and distorted. Every story of who write from this form has other issues they lump into what they accused a GC Church of doing to them. Some push their way and when they donít get it cry abuse. ECC is NOT what is painted here. Mark Darling and his family are NOT what is painted here.  Now Linda is stating there is no evidence from Suzanne accusations, which I will wait for the investigation to show. If not, then this whole issue, which has destroyed a family, will be for nothing more than this forum to continue to attack GC perpetually.  I believe there will never be an understanding from people like myself, that try and spend my time uplifting others, and hopefully living a life desired by God.  One more time, the reason I donít believe the accusations against MD is they donít hold water, and itís obvious that this forum is just using it as another manipulative tool against GC. I know, now Iím being mean again, but that is what I see clearly, regardless of the outcome. Please read what I shared of my past, as I think it would explain why I donít understand why some canít move on with their life, and quit with the hurtful attacks.  Iím sorry if I seem heartless, as I really donít like being in confrontation, and I care about people being hurt. That is why I share.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2018, 02:56:30 pm »

ShamednoMore,
 
Thank you so much for sharing your story! It's a sad one with a happy ending. I am so thankful you got the help that you needed from people who were wise enough to see what was going on with you, and that you had the courage to talk about it.  You have a sweet forgiving attitude, and your story here may help someone who is in one way or another in the same boat. You were able to see the truth about Jesus' love for you versus the lies you had believed about yourself and God.

I love the words of Jesus, "Daughter, neither do I condemn you..."  I feel bad that there are some condemning voices on the forum right now. You really should move your story where it doesn't get caught in the crossfire.

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araignee19
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« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2018, 03:02:18 pm »

In my opinion no one here has been hurt any worse than I have.

Gross. Hurts should not be compared like this. This is not a competition on some scale or who was hurt worse and who has a right to react a certain way. None of us know the full story of any other or why they reacted the way they did. There is no scoring system for hurts.
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Huldah
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« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2018, 03:17:32 pm »

Prince? Cranking out babies? Thatís a horrible distortion of actuality in the highest degree.

Maybe, maybe not. I left at a time when most GC members (we didn't even call it GC back then) were still unmarried. However, even so, it was at my GC church where I first heard the concept of "letting God decide how many children we have."

some did experince pain at a GC Church, and so the form will create pain for ALL GC members because of it.

Now that is just absurd. This forum isn't creating pain for all GC members. It may cause some pain for the few who have chosen to read here, but what they do with that pain is up to them. They can face some unpleasant truths about their movement and try to effect change in their churches, or they can live in angry denial. To the extent that anything said here was unfair or untrue (although I believe we strive to be fair and truthful), they can do what they're always urging us to do: forgive, heal, move on, and put it behind them.


We all only see and hear one side here, just as in Suzanne and others accusations.

If we're so one-sided, why are people like you, GTA, Jeromy, Isthisreal, RickTroll, and other current GC members allowed to practically take over the whole forum?
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Greentruth
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« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2018, 05:44:46 pm »


I could say the same to you. The audacity to distort the truth thousands have lived at ECC. Some have experienced hurt at ECC in the SAME manner as proposed here, yet as a saved Christian we can discern the cause from the Church, our parents and ourselves without seeking to destroy one element of the whole truth. There is a strength of bitterness on this form I have never seen anywhere. It comes through loud and clear, trust me. This form will turn a few away from ECC, and Church as a whole, but most are just seriously grieved at the assault and damage they see being done to their Church.  If this is your goal, you are succeeding, sadly.


I will freely admit that there are many people, primarily men, who thrive in the GCx environment. For whatever reason, the top-down militaristic chain of command really works for them. For woman and children, however, it can be a nightmare (depending on how closely individual family units adhere to the churchís teachings). Like Shamednomore (thanks so much for your sharing your experiences <3), I had an intensive GCx upbringing, though much different because of my gender. Boys are taught from a young age that they are the voice of God on earth and are raised to be leaders. Of course there is plenty of shaming, shunning, and snitching that go on to whip you into GCxís ideal of masculinity. However, some really embrace this role and, I think, sincerely do well in the church.

Iíve heard enough horror stories from women in GCx (e.g. the present MD situation, etc.) to know that women have it much worse. I find it hard to imagine that any woman ďhappilyĒ living the GCx lifestyle could truly be mentally well. But maybe there are women out there who really do enjoy being submissive to their husbands, being sexually available 24/7, and cranking out kids as fast as their bodies will allow.  

You all cry over a few comments saying there is a time  to move on and not let the issues you have dominate your lives and do the perpetual my story, my story, like no one else has experienced the level of hurt you have. Distorting my words to once again fit your more than anyone elseís pain. We all have pain, was all I was saying 19, but I suppose from the poor me seat you sit in my words where also poor me.  You see how hypocritical that is when someone else does it? And then you have ATTACKS on ECC women like this that Prince posted, calling happy loving women of God not mentally well. You people have NO platform to stand on and attack anyone, when you advocate this type of horrid talk from Prince and the likes of blonde. I thought there was a civil side coming out finally, but after SNM complete slam on MD and ECC AGAIN along with some comments here, I struggle having compassion.   I can clearly see that regardless of the results of the investigation and consequences, there will always be the never ending attack on ECC. All I can say again is forgive me, as my my disgust of todayís posts has taken me back again to realize the script is written here, and nothing will change that.
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Linda
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« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2018, 08:14:13 pm »

Quote from: Greentruth
I realize there are always two sides to every issue, and wanted to completely understand the side coming from here.
You have no idea of what people on this forum and their families are dealing with. Absolutely no idea. You do not completely understand this side. There is some really bad, dark, evil stuff that has resulted from the obedience to elders/commitment for life teaching. People, families, and marriages have been damaged.

Quote from: Greentruth
Now Linda is stating there is no evidence from Suzanne accusations, which I will wait for the investigation to show.
Make no mistake. There is evidence, lots of evidence in the form of documentation, testimony by victims and corroborating testimony. What I was referring to was physical evidence (such as a tape recording of conversations or a "stained dress", as far as I'm aware).



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« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2018, 09:18:03 pm »

"If we're so one-sided, why are people like you, GTA, Jeromy, Isthisreal, RickTroll, and other current GC members allowed to practically take over the whole forum?" -Huldah
[/quote

Linda has over 2000 posts and Huldah you have 500 to my 36....LOL! We're taking over! Greentruth was treated so nicely and respectfully by you guys too. We are totally dominating the conversations.

Isthisreal?, Your rate of posting is 1.5 posts/day.  Linda's same stat is 0.5 posts/day.  Overall, you are posting more frequently than Linda.
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Linda
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« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2018, 09:29:28 pm »

Ignore the substance of the discussion.  Attempt to shame the poster. This is your MO.

I suppose youíve already checked my criminal record.
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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2018, 12:40:06 pm »

I should just stay silent...but there are two things in this thread that get to the heart of why this forum isn't helpful. And this isn't addressed to Shamednomore but to all those who quickly rushed in to make sure she shared in your view of victimhood.

1. The cult of victimhood. Shamednomore seems to have endured some hurtful things. I don't belittle her pain nor deny wrong was done. But the way others rush in to emblazon her with the shared mantle of victimhood is unhelpful. Most of the frequent posters here eagerly share that status with anyone who will point their fingers at their shared perpetrator - anything GCX. Look at the great benefits of being a victim, shared feelings of being right, attention, validation, no need to take personal responsibilities for things that didn't go well. But being a victim is not helpful. It is artificial comfort that stunts growth, reconciliation and healing.

2. Much of what you all claim to be a victim of is simply biblical principles. Many here are much more closely aligned with our secular post-modern culture than the Bible. I've studied and I know why I believe what I believe. I know the manuscript evidence, the archaeological support, the predictive prophecy in the OT, the early creeds and eyewitness testimony and the ancient extra-biblical historical sources that corroborate the biblical accounts. God wrote this book through people. I trust him, and I trust it. We are not the editors of the book and this in not the Old Country Buffet where you take what you like and ignore the rest. I'm sorry you don't like certain things in the Bible, but it doesn't make you a victim that men and women may have different biblical roles, or that proverbs talks about using the rod.

Playing the victim may feel good for a season but in the end it only harms you.
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Shamednomore
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« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2018, 06:07:06 pm »


I am not playing a victim.  I WAS a victim, past tense.  If we were the victims, then gc was the perp.  Iím okay with those labels. CURRENTLY, I am sharing my story to corroborate the stories of unhealthy and abusive GC practices.  It helps to understand why MD was able to operate the way he did as long as he did.  He was the ultimate authority in his congregantsí lives.

DLM, What we do have in common is we study the same Bible.  I too believe in all of the Bible and donít consider it a buffet-but our interpretations are almost opposite.   What are you saying about archeological support and extra biblical creeds in reference to your interpretation of the Bible?

You want victims to take ďpersonal responsibilityĒ and stay quiet about abuse so as not to look hungry for attention?  Living in victimhood? 
Itís like not discussing Slavery in history class.  It happened.  It was bad.  We should study it and sometimes the repercussions last generations. 
After I wrote my story, some people said ďthank you for sharingĒ.  That is hardly stunting my growth or artificially comforting me.  I speak because I lived it and so did others so we can relate together.  It is very common for people who have a shared experience to gather together and talk to each other.  Sadly, sometimes the shared experience is painful or tragic.  But sharing it creates community and healing.

Thankfully, I am in a healthy church now.  Iím excited to continue growing in my faith in spite of what happened to me.  That is the power of Jesus. 






I should just stay silent...but there are two things in this thread that get to the heart of why this forum isn't helpful. And this isn't addressed to Shamednomore but to all those who quickly rushed in to make sure she shared in your view of victimhood.

1. The cult of victimhood. Shamednomore seems to have endured some hurtful things. I don't belittle her pain nor deny wrong was done. But the way others rush in to emblazon her with the shared mantle of victimhood is unhelpful. Most of the frequent posters here eagerly share that status with anyone who will point their fingers at their shared perpetrator - anything GCX. Look at the great benefits of being a victim, shared feelings of being right, attention, validation, no need to take personal responsibilities for things that didn't go well. But being a victim is not helpful. It is artificial comfort that stunts growth, reconciliation and healing.

2. Much of what you all claim to be a victim of is simply biblical principles. Many here are much more closely aligned with our secular post-modern culture than the Bible. I've studied and I know why I believe what I believe. I know the manuscript evidence, the archaeological support, the predictive prophecy in the OT, the early creeds and eyewitness testimony and the ancient extra-biblical historical sources that corroborate the biblical accounts. God wrote this book through people. I trust him, and I trust it. We are not the editors of the book and this in not the Old Country Buffet where you take what you like and ignore the rest. I'm sorry you don't like certain things in the Bible, but it doesn't make you a victim that men and women may have different biblical roles, or that proverbs talks about using the rod.

Playing the victim may feel good for a season but in the end it only harms you.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2018, 09:56:13 pm »

So your a victim, sorry you had to experince life, something EVERY single person has to live with. Whether it was your parents, other people, or the Church that you feel put you in that spot, Only you can keep yourself a victim. Many I know who where beaten up,raped, robbed and shot, picked on for being different, or just simply miserable with life have found a much better life NOT being the victim, but being the ear, the helper, the volunteer, the positive force that will influence another in seeking a relationship with Jesus and His Spirit of Joy that can only be found through the hope in knowing you are loved in a good, positive way. There is no hope, healing or joy in negativism to purposely hurt others. You donít think that is the goal here? I have seen this forum originators say itís ok to hurt some innocent in their quest, and just as blonde struck out in rage, and prince attacks God loving women on this very thread, and others that help start this negative lie that they do it for good. If you need to come to this forum to attack what you and I canít possibly know one way or another, than you are a victim, OF THIS FORUM
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« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2018, 10:02:03 pm »

Greentruth, based on your posts here, I would heartily recommend you read "False Assumptions" by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend. Especially assumptions 2, 4, 5 and 6. Theirs is the most Biblical analysis of such false assumptions that I have seen. I have found great healing and necessary conviction therein.
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« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2018, 10:08:14 pm »

You know what Greentruth, your responses only reiterate the points we are trying to make. Itís just another nail in the coffin so to speak. So in a way, thank you for that.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2018, 10:25:23 pm »

That will be determined by your sparse support and members for one thing. 

I have been involved in enough life or death situations where the outcome is determined by being positive or negative, and seen the consequences, to trust any advise from an advocate of negativism and advocated victimization. I see some use Bible verses here often out of context.  This is not a healthy place to get your advise, of this Iím quite sure!
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LisaFeist
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« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2018, 10:30:24 pm »

You literally make zero sense. Iíll chat with you when the results are in. You may be surprised.
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