GCxWeb

Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[Linda]

http://gcxweb.org/Default.aspx

I was Googling again and found this interesting link. Lot's of stuff I've never seen. Very helpful and organized. Someone went to a lot of work here.

It is still my prayer that the leaders in positions of authority within the movement will realize their error and fix it. It seems that God has been trying to reach them and has been waiting patiently for many years.

[DrSam]

http://gcxweb.org/Default.aspx

I was Googling again and found this interesting link. Lot's of stuff I've never seen. Very helpful and organized. Someone went to a lot of work here.

It is still my prayer that the leaders in positions of authority within the movement will realize their error and fix it. It seems that God has been trying to reach them and has been waiting patiently for many years.

Linda,

Even though GC definitely has baggage it needs to take care of, it pains me to see one sided slamming and no opportunity to present a more balanced scenario (taking into account: lack of all facts, motives or writers, quality and kind of sources reporting, etc.). Most of the folks such as Pile, McDonald, Martin, etc., may have a lot of zeal and believe they have good motives, yet they also show the same kind of vis-a-vis (duality extremes) they accuse GCx of. They are blind to this and this is their demise spiritually. They still show deep anger and resentment and appear on a witch hunt still all these years later. They want heads on a platter. They are not at a place where they can bless their "enemies," hence they are not healed. They are operating from lower emotions probably originating in their trauma memories. A healed person can visit the trauma  and not have that "electrical charge" but be neutral. This permits them to see the good motives intrinsically while seeing the fallenness. A healed person seeks balance, not victimization. The ego loves either to aggrandize itself or to make itself as a victim because both of those stances bring tremendous enjoyable "juice" that are "me-centered." Very subtle. Wishing you the best in your healing journey.

[theresearchpersona]

"duality extremes"...

is this what you'd call what Paul was saying when he said he wished those who troubled the Christ's bride would castrate themselves?

They may also simply be showing zeal against very sheep-looking wolves...no offense or disrespect meant. I'm genuinely interested. Thanks.

[Linda]

Hi Sam,

Hope your Spring is going well.

The reason I find reading the old articles helpful is that it makes me realize that the problems that plagued GCx in the past (the ones they admitted to in their error statement) are the same problems that my husband and I left over.

I don't hate those currently in leadership. I do think many in leadership are in error in the area of authority. Some GCx leaders publicly and privately tell others that they think my husband and I are in error. That is their right. It is not slander for someone to tell others that they think I am wrong about theological matters and it is not slander for me to tell others that I think they are wrong.

As far as Pile, Martin, and McDonald are concerned, I had never heard of them until my local GCC church started teaching what I believed was significant error. The writings of these men that I found through Googling didn't present me with any new information, but merely confirmed that which I already suspected.

I've never met those men, but something major resonated with what they wrote. I've never met the people described in the articles that are posted on the GCx site, but, again, something is resonating.

I find it interesting, but unproductive to try to delve into the motives of people. As far as GCx leaders go, it's my preference is to choose to believe that they are people who are trying to love the Lord to the best of their ability, but who are tripped up by some error that was deeply ingrained in them when they were new believers. I suppose they could also just be a bunch of men operating from lower emotions, seeking recognition and power. I choose not to judge them and I also choose not to judge Pile, Martin, and McDonald.

Also, I don't always understand the "healing" term. It really doesn't apply to our experience there. Basically, some leaders taught some things that were obviously unsound. We approached them nicely over a few months, they wouldn't correct the teaching because, as it turned out, what we thought was a "misunderstanding" turned out to be part of their core beliefs.

We then left. Months after we left, current members approached us who had apparently been misinformed as to why we left so my husband blogged about our reasons. Then, we were shunned. I have no hate towards these leaders. Frankly, my main emotion towards them is pity.

I'm glad your experience is different, Sam.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wow... I love the gcx site.

This quote was from Jim M at an excommunication.  It's directed at someone in the audience...

"Sister, do you have a question? Is that your husband next to you? Can you ask him later tonight at home? Okay? "


Grrr... I'm sure he thinks he's applying scripture here... how did all these people stick with this group??

[Linda]

That excommunication transcript is in Marching to Zion and the little interchange between Joy and "the gang" was what stood out to me, also.

McCotter goes on and on for page after page (blah, blah, blah) and then this little meek woman tries to voice a concern and is immediately shot down verbally.

My favorite line is:

Sister I rebuke you! Please sit down! Sister, please!

The sad thing that I remember when I think of this transcript is that in the early stages of our deciding we had to leave (right after the talk where Mark Darling told us we were his bride and we were borrowing the house of another man's bride because we were renting the auditorium of a large church) we mentioned this talk to a pastor and said something like, "You know, there is something fishy here and we don't really know what it is and all we can figure out is it seems to be coming from Ames."

I told him about this tape and mentioned the line, "Sister, I rebuke you!"

At the time, we were still friends with him and he joked with us a little later in the conversation and used the "Sister, I rebuke you" line on me to be funny and we all laughed.

A year and a half later he preached a sermon against Terry's blog and decided to shun us, taking two other families with him who had never even  heard our story from us.

Very sad.

[AgathaL'Orange]

When I was reading that transcript it felt so much like it could have been a doomsday cult or a Jim Jones type cult based on how WEIRD the statements they were making were.  

I mean, who talks like that?  They were so head over heels, sincere.  It was weird how people had to ask permission to speak, and how they were just being ignored... also how they were excommunicating someone who they agreed had "good intentions."  Umm.  Okay.  But now WE'RE supposed to look over all their faults because they too have "good intentions."  A little hypocritical don't you think?

These men should have stepped down long ago.  I would rather see them living as millionaires driving Porsches or whatever and making jets to sell for tons of money than keeping up the charade.

Hello, "brothers," you were kids, newly saved, and clueless about how churches should be run!  I rebuke you!  Step down from leadership, brothers!  You built a huge sand castle on a faulty foundation and now you wonder why it keeps crumbling!  Oh "brothers" respect your leaders in the church, and go to seminary brothers!  Place yourself under the authority of those who have studied and shown themselves approved workmen for God!!

I can speak, "Melodramatic Christianese" too!  Hee hee.  Maybe if we would have talked to them like THAT, they would have listened!

[wastedyearsthere]

I consider this protocol for GCx churches.  Manipulation and coercion.  The arogance to think somehow God talks to the Elders and discounts what the community of believers in the church think.  

I find it sadly humorous where Jim was going to ask this lady Joy to go home and ask her unbeliever father before she was allowed to speak.  Does anyone know if this woman is still with GCx churches?

In the early 80's there was LOTS of ex-communications.  I remember one woman being ex-communicated because she was depressed (post-partum).  And I was like a sheep going along with it all because I didn't know better.

Maybe if there was this means of communication back then I wouldn't have wasted years of my life there and been spiritually abused.

[theresearchpersona]

Can anyone point me to the proper link on that site about the excommunication...I was reading it the other night and now I can't find it.

There's some parallels to what is going on in there (to present) and I'd post them but then I realized...I really don't want to describe too much GC stuff in certain things on the public forum so they don't decide to try and hide more. Just realizing that this is necessary makes my heart sink a little...trying to talk to some of the guys and others is like talking to a wall...brainwashed. : (

[wastedyearsthere]

http://gcxweb.org/Default.aspx

It is under the title of Audio -- ex-communication of Gary Henke

I thought they weren't ex-communicating anymore -- now they are just asking people to leave?  

[AgathaL'Orange]

I think a certain person who makes a lot of money now should pay reparations to people who DON'T make a lot of money now because they listened to him, dropped out of school, flunked out of school, and generally screwed up their lives.


He was such a control freak.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Yeah, THAT excom. happened in 85 I think.

Is Dave in the transcript, Dave B?  Does anyone know WHO exactly the other participants were?

Wow, Marching to Zion was a whole lot more informative than I thought!

[steelgirl]

http://gcxweb.org/Default.aspx

It is under the title of Audio -- ex-communication of Gary Henke

I thought they weren't ex-communicating anymore -- now they are just asking people to leave?  

Have you heard of cases?  I wondered if that happened with a friend of mine.   I was "too damaged" to be in a small group following the transitional big move.  I however did not know better, since I did not want to go back to the Baptist Church.  Instead I put up with some crap.  I don't regret that ministry opportunity though the next year following the move.

[steelgirl]

I think a certain person who makes a lot of money now should pay reparations to people who DON'T make a lot of money now because they listened to him, dropped out of school, flunked out of school, and generally screwed up their lives.


He was such a control freak.

I am not saying he is not a believer, however God should deal with him.  I don't know what kind of justice God has for people like that.

[wastedyearsthere]

Has anyone heard of anyone having been ex-communicated or harrassed that has brought a law suit against these people?

If anyone harrassed me the way the stories I'm hearing on this site -- I would be talking with an attorney

[AgathaL'Orange]

Can leaders of abberant groups be held legally accountable?  I'm not sure they can.  I have no idea of precedent... anyone else know?

[theresearchpersona]

well yes, there's this jealous husband known generally as "God" who won't tolerate any meddling with his bride...even in the name of supposedly protecting her (though those you're fighting are the ones actually doing what's according to His Word). He will hold men very accountable...and this should put us all into the right mindset: fear. Temper that fear with love and proper acknowledgment of our need and HIS authority...and if you keep you eyes on His word, you ought be well-led by His spirit and rightly governed.

At any rate, scarily, woefully, but justly...nobody will get away with anything; so we all need Christ's blood and should be all the more thankful. Trouble is, some leaders think this makes it safe for them if they are abberant...the word says otherwise. To them it just says "woe...".

[namaste]

Has anyone heard of anyone having been ex-communicated or harrassed that has brought a law suit against these people?

If anyone harrassed me the way the stories I'm hearing on this site -- I would be talking with an attorney

Yes.

I've read in newspaper articles that people have discussed lawsuits (I'd imagine those articles are on the new site that was mentioned).

IIRC, there actually *was* a lawsuit at some point (this would have been awhile back).  That said, I could be remembering something wrong, etc.  I'll hunt around sometime and see if I can find anything.

Someone asked about aberrant groups being held legally accountable...

The short answer is yes.  The long answer is yes.  In particular, pastors (in a number of religions) are growing increasingly concerned, re: the advice they give when counseling members of the congregation, etc.

Again, that's not an indictment of GCx.  I'm just saying that being a church, non-profit, or religious group is not a shield for legally liability.  This isn't legal advice, and if you want/need legal advice, go talk to an attorney (blah, blah, blah...yadda, yadda, yadda).  :wink:

[lone gone]

I feel certain that in our litigious society many people will consider suing a leader, a group, or an organization if there is money that can be collected.
Anyone that even simply feels hurt can sue. This is evidence to me that this society values feelings way too highly. Kids sue parents, parents sue kids, relatives of victims can sue, people who misuse products can sue companies,even idle witnesses to crimes can sue perpetrators for emotional damage. Too many lawyers, too many dollars, too little sense.

James taught about this... isn't it your evil desires that are at the root of any dispute?  

Two people with nothing to lose can find agreement quickly. But if even one person has something to lose, it opens the possibility for dispute.

Sam made some very good points about balance and healing. His ideas may be expressed in the language of psychology which many people would find confusing and unhelpful.

Healed people don't need to sue to find closure. Healed people realize their own contributions to the problems. Healed people accept their own flaws and the flaws of others ( log in your own eye vs the speck in your brothers)  and leave all vengeance to God... because they realize that anything they do to an enemy gives that enemy permission to do the same back to them. ( Do unto others...)

Christ taught his disciples to shake the dust off their sandals when they met someone opposed to them ( so that their enemies couldn't even accuse them of coveting the soil of their land) and then leave.  

Paul taught that even when people disagree, in the end the correct person will become evident.  It takes time for fruit to appear.

If you can't stand to wait for the fruit, then leave.