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Author Topic: Logical fallacies  (Read 46667 times)
Greentruth
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« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2018, 01:52:26 pm »

Have you watched the u tube clip? Either way you look at it, it can end up in anger if there is disagreement. Which you see here in either definition. No time now, Doc app
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HughHoney
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« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2018, 02:11:28 pm »

Matthew 7:6
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EscapeFromSummitview
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« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2018, 02:15:48 pm »

Greentruth doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of the English language.
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Wrestling
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« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2018, 02:33:20 pm »

Greentruth doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of the English language.

I don’t think there is a need to be cheeky, it seems like it’s just a miscommunication and fallacy and logical fallacy have different definitions. I truly want to know Green Truth’s thoughts on logical fallacies as it applies to this forum because I’ve only heard one perspective and it’s would be a sound way to make some distinctions in all of the noise.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2018, 02:49:05 pm »

Arguing, very seldom have I seen it done civilly. Maybe some feel they are not coming across angry, while others in the cross hairs do.

So when Jeromy comes on here specifically to argue ("driving the moneychangers from the temple" as he calls it), you oppose what he is doing?
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Linda
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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2018, 05:03:59 pm »

The reason I gave the definition I did is because the context of this thread is fallacies. Fallacies refer to bad reasoning used in discussions. It is a debate term. As is the word argument which refers to the evidence and reasoning used to support a claim.

As others have mentioned, I think perhaps you are thinking fallacy has the same meaning as falsehood. It does not.

Here is a link that might help you understand what “argument” means in the context of this thread which is fallacies.

https://www.debateablekids.com/glossary-of-debate-terms.html


Argument or Argumentation:  Using evidence and reasoning to support claims.

Fallacy, or Logical Fallacy: Bad or erroneous reasoning that results in an unsound argument.


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BTDT
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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2018, 05:51:29 pm »

World view, or Gods view? Read Gods word and follow. Fallacies are replaced with Love, compassion,goodness, grace and forgiveness. Jesus did this for each of us. Reject His truths and follow the world view, and continue to live in fallacy. The only definition I need to know.
Hi, Greentruth -- many good, well-meaning Christians, who believe they are being led by the Spirit, come to differing conclusions when reading the same passages of Scripture. "Read God's word and follow" can lead to a very bad path if one is not accurately interpreting Scripture.  In my experience, it is unwise to get your Biblical interpretation from a single source or denomination or group.

I gently reiterate my advice to read "False Assumptions" by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend. Their assertions are deeply Scripture-based; I think you'd be well-advised to honestly consider their point of view.
-B
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Greentruth
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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2018, 06:22:08 pm »

World view, or Gods view? Read Gods word and follow. Fallacies are replaced with Love, compassion,goodness, grace and forgiveness. Jesus did this for each of us. Reject His truths and follow the world view, and continue to live in fallacy. The only definition I need to know.
Hi, Greentruth -- many good, well-meaning Christians, who believe they are being led by the Spirit, come to differing conclusions when reading the same passages of Scripture. "Read God's word and follow" can lead to a very bad path if one is not accurately interpreting Scripture.  In my experience, it is unwise to get your Biblical interpretation from a single source or denomination or group.

I gently reiterate my advice to read "False Assumptions" by Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend. Their assertions are deeply Scripture-based; I think you'd be well-advised to honestly consider their point of view.
-B

I PM you
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Greentruth
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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2018, 07:01:05 pm »

BTDT, I remembered these authors,Dr,Henry Cloud and Dr. JohnTownsend, and a book I read from them years ago called Boundries. I highly recommend this for you and others here as well. Funny, I just pulled it off the shelf and found it book marked to page 88. The Law of Responsibility. Paragraph two:  The law of responsibility includes loving others. The commandment to Love is the entire law for Christians (Gal.5:13-14). Jesus calls it my commandment: Love each other as I have loved you(John 15:12). Anytime you are not loving others, you are not taking full responsibility for yourself; you have DISOWNED your heart.
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Huldah
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2018, 08:04:56 pm »

GT, I own the Boundaries book, I've read it, and I often recommend it to others. I'm glad we can agree that it's an excellent book.

I would only like to point out that love is not the same thing as always agreeing with someone else, nor does it mean that you don't hold a fellow believer accountable when they abuse their authority and hurt someone else.

If you haven't read it already, Bold Love by Dan Allendar explores that theme very well. Although I don't like the title much (it sounds a bit like a paperback romance novel), the book really digs into Scripture to explore the relationship between love and accountability.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2018, 05:18:57 am »

GT, I own the Boundaries book, I've read it, and I often recommend it to others. I'm glad we can agree that it's an excellent book.

I would only like to point out that love is not the same thing as always agreeing with someone else, nor does it mean that you don't hold a fellow believer accountable when they abuse their authority and hurt someone else.

If you haven't read it already, Bold Love by Dan Allendar explores that theme very well. Although I don't like the title much (it sounds a bit like a paperback romance novel), the book really digs into Scripture to explore the relationship between love and accountability.

Boundries addressees this Hulda. We voice our concern in a loving manner and let go. We are not responsible for changing others. I have tried to relay this in a loving manner here, and have failed a few times, mostly as a conversation on media is not the way to relay, as I have said, face to face shows true demeanor and agenda. Negativism can take root in your inner most being if you expose yourself to it for to long. Why I have to disengage from this forum for a time. I have honestly tried to relay the truths I know. Just praying God will use the pain I have seen for good.
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2018, 05:34:02 am »

Since we were talking about logical fallacies at first, I am just going to leave this here.
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OneOfMany
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« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2018, 05:37:43 am »



Boundries addressees this Hulda. We voice our concern in a loving manner and let go. We are not responsible for changing others. I have tried to relay this in a loving manner here, and have failed a few times, mostly as a conversation on media is not the way to relay, as I have said, face to face shows true demeanor and agenda. Negativism can take root in your inner most being if you expose yourself to it for to long. Why I have to disengage from this forum for a time. I have honestly tried to relay the truths I know. Just praying God will use the pain I have seen for good.

So now I understand where you are coming from. You believe, if I read correctly above, that the Christian thing to do is to voice our concern in a loving manner directly to someone and then move on. Let it go. Do nothing else.

I think GreenTruth that this approach works well for issues that do not harm others on an ongoing basis. It is appropriate for some situations and not others. When there are people in power who use that power to harm others on an ongoing basis then letting it go is not appropriate. What we have been trying to tell you is that such a situation exists at GCM churches.

There are times when to let it go is the wrong thing to do. Even sinful to do. When church leaders are abusing their authority that is a time to put the pressure on after loving voicing of concern has failed. And with Evergreen/GCM the voicing of concern has failed for decades. To be silent is the easy path but not the loving path. To stand by and say nothing while knowing new victims will suffer is not righteous at all.

What you read, about voicing concern and then moving on is a healthy pattern of living in most circumstances. But not this one here.

You said that we cannot change people. That is true. Yet people do change. For decades Christian after Christian have asked the Evergreen leaders to change how they operate the church. They have asked for protection from Mark Darling. Yet here we are. The leaders are resolute in continuing in their harmful ways. We cannot change others, but they can change themselves. They have made it clear that they will not stop deceiving others nor act with righteousness towards members who are being hurt. Instead they are buckling down and presenting themselves as the victim.

After decades of asking for change it is time to shine the light.

I understand now how deeply you care about Christians behaving in a Christian manner towards one another.  I appreciate that very much. Unfortunately in this situation after decades of trying to handle the abuses by approaching the pastors one on one and then moving on..it is time to act. For if good people do nothing then evil continues in its way.
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Linda
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« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2018, 05:42:41 am »

Since we were talking about logical fallacies at first, I am just going to leave this here.
I always use that phrase wrong. Thanks for the reminder.

Just curious, were you just adding a "favorite" fallacy, or were you relating it in a broader sense to the MD/ECC situation?
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omelianchuk
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« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2018, 10:11:45 am »

Since we were talking about logical fallacies at first, I am just going to leave this here.
I always use that phrase wrong. Thanks for the reminder.

Just curious, were you just adding a "favorite" fallacy, or were you relating it in a broader sense to the MD/ECC situation?

Just adding my favorite piece of fallacy stuff, because this sort of thing always irks me  Cheesy    I understand why people say it the other way, though.

As far the ECC stuff goes, I am waiting for the BoT to finally make its decision. Don't know what else to say at this point.
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Huldah
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« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2018, 12:50:21 pm »

Since we were talking about logical fallacies at first, I am just going to leave this here.

Yes! My thoughts exactly! This problem is especially rampant in journalism.
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BTDT
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« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2018, 07:46:58 pm »

I PM you
Received, thanks! I will probably take a day or so to reply, as there are a couple of points you raised that I want to ponder.
-B
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BTDT
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2018, 07:58:14 pm »

BTDT, I remembered these authors,Dr,Henry Cloud and Dr. JohnTownsend, and a book I read from them years ago called Boundries. [...]
I appreciate the recommendation. I can understand why you marked that page, it's a great quote you shared. I may move the book higher on my to-read list, but finishing Philip Yancey's "Vanishing Grace" comes first.

We can all spend a lifetime learning how to balance letting go, accountability, when to participate and engage and when to walk away, know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

-B
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Greentruth
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2018, 04:30:39 am »

BTDT, I remembered these authors,Dr,Henry Cloud and Dr. JohnTownsend, and a book I read from them years ago called Boundries. [...]
I appreciate the recommendation. I can understand why you marked that page, it's a great quote you shared. I may move the book higher on my to-read list, but finishing Philip Yancey's "Vanishing Grace" comes first.

We can all spend a lifetime learning how to balance letting go, accountability, when to participate and engage and when to walk away, know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em.

-B

You are so right. I have bookshelves full of inspirational books who express their interpretations of the Bible. The vast majority pretty much read the same. I have been reading more history books, which give first hand account of attitudes or theory. Those leaders and individuals who sought to build up, rather than tear down brought positive results. You have those who through selfish goals tear down and cause misery for many. I believe God uses some who have selfish and even evil goals to build up, such as the pharaoh and the Israelites. I see hard hearts here often, manipulating truths and facts for what is obviously a personal agenda. God will use it for good, but it doesn’t make it right. Sure, if someone is purposely partaking in destructive activities, call them out. But I don’t get that from this forum. It comes across as more of a personal attempt to tear down, regardless of who or what is torn down. Look at history, whole civilizations have been torn down from the acts of a few bitter or angry people.we have become a me society, with division growing more all the time.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2018, 05:33:56 am »

I plan on picking up the book you recommended by Phillip Yancey, as it would be interesting to get a perspective on why grace is vanishing, and in what form. Gods grace never goes weak, but as in the aspect of what we have discussed, pride and selfishness destroys grace in our hearts. Just as our society sinks into less ethic and morals, grace is diminishing with it. As I shared, our me society is dividing us a little more all the time, and in my opinion taking away the grace needed to survive in a loving positive way. Gods word portrays this so clearly, and Jesus example amplified the Word lovingly.
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