Temporary setback or permanant damage

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[lone gone]

I am curious about what each of us thinks about our GCM experience.
It seems to me that many of us have concluded we were badly wounded and others, perhaps the ones who don't post, hardly seemed effected at all.

I left the GC church I attended in 1982. I felt very wounded then, had lots an deferred anger, and over time I have discovered that some of that anger was misplaced.

I now view my time in the movement as a temporary setback in my spiritual journey. I see now that I had wandered off into some kind of confused state of mind and heart,had to undergo a "course-correction" and then went on to a new level of growth.

I have also seen myself do this several times in my life since then.

How do each of you view yourselves, as permanently damaged or only temporarily setback in your spiritual growth?

I'd like it if this could be a simple poll but we don't have that function here that I know of.

[wastedyearsthere]

I think both are true of me.  There are things that I have recovered from and have healed from.  But there is damage in my theological understanding and some dysfunctional thinking that I continue to struggle with from GCC.  I got saved in that church and had no Bible knowledge up to that point -- so I definitely got all my understanding from that church.  I had noone to give me any other Christian viewpoints.  I still struggle with what God's Will is for my life.  I thought reaching the world through evangelism was everything.

[Huldah]

For me, it's a mixed bag. There are still harmful things I'm unlearning, all these years later.

To be fair, I learned some positive things too. Although I was saved fairly young I never attended a church where serious Bible study was encouraged and expected, or where people could openly discuss spiritual things without any feeling of awkwardness. In this sense, GC was everything I'd ever dreamed of in a church. It still remains my benchmark in that regard.

I learned some other good things as a result of negative examples. For one thing, GC has shown me what happens when you put your faith in pastors with no sound theological training and no life experience. A twenty-year-old "elder" (what an ironic term), no matter how zealous he is, is not qualified to map out the rest of someone else's life. For that matter, I've learned to consider pastors as respected fellow believers who have many of the same faults I have, whose insight is to be prayerfully considered and evaluated, but who are decidedly not to be treated as direct oracles of God.

My time at GC radically changed the entire course of my life, in that I made some decisions that shocked even myself. Abandoning my education was one such decision, and joining the military was another. These decisions were made in panic, in a desperate need to distance myself from the abuse at GC. Sometimes I wonder what my life would have been like if I hadn't been abruptly derailed from my goals. I guess I won't ever know the answer to that question. I only know that the experience was absolutely traumatic.

One real problem is that I was raised with fairly weak boundaries to begin with, and then my GCx experience absolutely tore down my sense of healthy self-protection. My desire to be a good witness for Christ, combined with the GC emphasis on submission and self-denial, made me overly vulnerable to the demands of other people, even long after I left GC. Doesn't Scripture say that we should be all things to all people, that we should give to everyone who asks, that we should submit to each other in love, and that we should bear all kinds of insult for the sake of Christ? It's taken me years--no, decades--to understand how badly I misunderstood those passages. (Two books, Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend, and Bold Love by Dan Allender, have been extremely helpful in sorting it out.) In the meantime, my marriage, my children, and my health often suffered because I was a wife/mom who couldn't say No to all the various "takers" I encountered. Or, when I did say No, I paid the price by feeling guilty and unChristian, no matter how unreasonable the demand was. This was one of a number of painful things I took away from GC.

[EverAStudent]

You have asked an interesting question.  Joining and staying in GCI for as long as I did was my own fault, and my own responsibility.  The abusive treatment by ungifted (and often untrained) elders is their responsibility.  Believing some of their biblical errors was my responsibility.  Their accusations toward me ("stiff-necked," "hard hearted," "unteachable," ...) and their anti-social treatment toward me when I took note of some of their biblical errors, is their responsibility.  I have forgiven them on a personal level (forgiveness meaning that I do not seek ill for them or hope to see them punished), though none of these leaders has apologized for having administered poor doctrines.

Permanent damage?  I do not think so.  On the other hand, I am cautious about "new" doctrines, taking very seriously the scriptural mandate to examine everything closely against the Word.  Marginal doctrines (doctrines that are not explicitly taught by any clear Scripture, for example, like Christian Hedonism) are the ones I tend to reject more rapidly and vigorously than I might have done in my youth.  I am less willing to overlook sloppy exegesis or passages used out of context.  Though others may disagree, I do not see this as "damage" but as taking more seriously the Christian obligation to hold fast to the faithful Word, the primary safety net against abuse which the Holy Spirit has given His church.

Diotrephes is alive and well in other church organizations, not just in GCI/GCM.  The key is to embrace other Christians in love, to work with them, but not to forget that Christ is the real head of you, the church, and over all doctrine, and that He has not introduced any new doctrine to the church in the past 2000 years.

[ustawannabee]

I think 'scarred' is the way I view it. always wondering just what something might mean if the phrase sounds familiar.

[AgathaL'Orange]

For me it was a catalyst for change.  I became Eastern Orthodox after my involvement with GC.

[theresearchpersona]

Was given a hunger for discerning, eye for deception and subtlty (still working on it), knowledge of my need for Christ and understanding in His Word, and to take heed...and found out that truly He's more precious than all of it, or anything or anyone else. : D

All by getting abused (no, not burned GC: you did not burn me...I turned against the falsities and wicked deceits that pass as good but rob the sheep: and that's why I, and others, must work against you).

[DrSam]

Was given a hunger for discerning, eye for deception and subtlty (still working on it), knowledge of my need for Christ and understanding in His Word, and to take heed...and found out that truly He's more precious than all of it, or anything or anyone else. : D

All by getting abused (no, not burned GC: you did not burn me...I turned against the falsities and wicked deceits that pass as good but rob the sheep: and that's why I, and others, must work against you).

As I have said before, despite of the painful wounds received under immature brethren, I don't think any GC leader pastor deliberately planned to be deceitful or rob the sheep... at least while I was in the organization for 25 years. I think it is going too far to accuse them of such. I have suffered greatly and incurred great losses in my life and I was very angry and wounded. God has taken me through a process of healing and restoration where I can honestly bless those who hurt me. I wish no ill will to them but desire for them what I desire for myself, to fall in love with Christ more and more.

ResearchGuy... I would encourage you to transcend what I perceive as deep anger and hurt and give grace back. I'm sure you and I have a lot of heresy in our lives that the Holy Spirit can see but He is gentle and patient with both of us. I have been like you in my past with various groups I have been with and ultimately God revealed to me how harsh I was being and how I was guilty of what I accused the brethren of on some level.

God bless you my dear brother!

[MidnightRider]

[...]despite of the painful wounds received under immature brethren, I don't think any GC leader pastor deliberately planned to be deceitful or rob the sheep...

I have said it here before, but sincerity is the most overrated of the virtues.

[DrSam]

[...]despite of the painful wounds received under immature brethren, I don't think any GC leader pastor deliberately planned to be deceitful or rob the sheep...

I have said it here before, but sincerity is the most overrated of the virtues.

Midnight,

Explain yourself. Is you comment directed to me or are you saying that my statement is wrong? I would appreciate that you clarify the meaning of what you said.

[EverAStudent]

I would encourage you to transcend what I perceive as deep anger and hurt

I often wonder why some delight in accusing others of being unforgiving or bitter when all that was done was to imitate Paul and call attention to, and warn others of, the evil done to the faith by bad teachers.  

This one who judges others of being bitter claims it is wrong to level accusations at any of the brethren, yet, they are doing the same, leveling an accusation against a brother of being bitter.  And on what evidence is the brother accused of being unforgiving and bitter?  The "unforgiving" brother must be bitter because he warns others that GCx teaches wrong doctrine in violation of Scripture.  

Is it a sign of bitterness to warn others that GCx is teaching against Scripture?  Is it?

Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching. (2 Timothy 4:14-15)

Or, perhaps, we should imitate John.

I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. (3 John 1:9-11)

Or, maybe, righteousness is simply remaining "humbly" silent?

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced mbecause they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, (Titus 1:9-13)

Or, maybe not.

I am just so curious why we think we have any god-given right to accuse the brethren of being unforgiving and bitter when alll they have done is warn others that some "brethren" are teaching wrongly and so disrupt the faith of many?

It is my call that on this forum we stop permitting the charge of "bitterness" and "unforgiving" to be charged against those who are merely pointing out the error of GCx's poor teaching, which is the offense of GCx that goes on to this very day.

[Linda]

It is my call that on this forum we stop permitting the charge of "bitterness" and "unforgiving" to be charged against those who are merely pointing out the error of GCx's poor teaching, which is the offense of GCx that goes on to this very day.

The way I look at it is that the people who always come through with the charge of "bitterness, etc." are just trying to get us off topic with unsubstantiated accusations. It's an ad hominem, red herring.

Plus, it's just plain illogical.  No one except God is in a position to judge the motives of another. That's a heart issue.

So, I figure if we just keep to the facts of the GC teaching that is bad (and to be fair, not all GC teaching is bad) and our experience with that bad teaching, the people who come on and "judge" motives kind of take care of themselves.

Although, I must admit, it's frustrating. However, thinking people are able to see the discussion and weed out the personal attacks on character. Plus, in an odd sort of way, the accusers help us prove our point!

[DrSam]

I would encourage you to transcend what I perceive as deep anger and hurt

I often wonder why some delight in accusing others of being unforgiving or bitter when all that was done was to imitate Paul and call attention to, and warn others of, the evil done to the faith by bad teachers.  

This one who judges others of being bitter claims it is wrong to level accusations at any of the brethren, yet, they are doing the same, leveling an accusation against a brother of being bitter.  And on what evidence is the brother accused of being unforgiving and bitter?  The "unforgiving" brother must be bitter because he warns others that GCx teaches wrong doctrine in violation of Scripture.  

Is it a sign of bitterness to warn others that GCx is teaching against Scripture?  Is it?

Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching. (2 Timothy 4:14-15)

Or, perhaps, we should imitate John.

I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church. Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. (3 John 1:9-11)

Or, maybe, righteousness is simply remaining "humbly" silent?

holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced mbecause they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, (Titus 1:9-13)

Or, maybe not.

I am just so curious why we think we have any god-given right to accuse the brethren of being unforgiving and bitter when alll they have done is warn others that some "brethren" are teaching wrongly and so disrupt the faith of many?

It is my call that on this forum we stop permitting the charge of "bitterness" and "unforgiving" to be charged against those who are merely pointing out the error of GCx's poor teaching, which is the offense of GCx that goes on to this very day.

Ever,

I would like to say that I, in no way, discount the wounds of those hurt by GC. They are real and they hurt. I think you must be misunderstanding.

If you want to judge me go ahead, friend. You are doing what you are trying to frame me with and that which you criticize.

My comments are based on the actual statements of a gentleman that I originally addressed who appeared to universalize some very harsh and strong statements of judgment and condemnation that I strongly disagree with as one who has known most of the leaders of GC over many years as a pastor and as a National Leader. He accused or implied that these leaders had "wicked deceits that pass as good but rob the sheep." That is strong judgment of men I have known that are flawed but not trying to be deceitful or wicked. I believe that is crossing a line. That is why I stand up and defend the very ones who wounded me.

I compare this with how we as parents can be severely flawed and may even damage our children due to our dysfunctions. To say that parents are wicked and deceitful to their children for wounding them is going a little bit too far. Surely some are very sick ones but not necessarily all who wound their children. We all have been hurt by our parents and yet healing from those hurts includes transcending our hurt and seeing the motives and the good heart of our parents though they did hurt us.

If I am wrong to assume that this brother needs healing because of:

1. His own emotionally charged statements

2. Where he reveals to the world that he has great energy

3. To fight this "deceit" and this "wickedness" and

4. Which he seems to attribute to all pastors of GC

Then forgive me.

[Linda]

I am just so curious why we think we have any god-given right to accuse the brethren of being unforgiving and bitter when alll they have done is warn others that some "brethren" are teaching wrongly and so disrupt the faith of many?

Hi Sam,
I have to say I agree with EAS. There are currently over 150 registered here and we all have a different story. It seems unprofitable to try to figure out the motives of each. Besides being unprofitable, it's also impossible.

As EAS mentioned, we are able to judge teaching and it is the right thing to do to warn others of bad teaching.

Unfortunately, in this post modern world of "feelings", it's hard for people to separate criticism of ideas from criticism of "the person".

I didn't take EAS's comment as a judgment on you personally, but rather as trying to make the point that some teachings need to be judged because they are wrong. Yet, when people try to point out faulty teaching they are sometimes hit with the accusation of bitterness.

It's happened to a lot of us here and when it does, it serves as a distraction from the real issue, which is pointing out flawed teaching.

Really, I don't care if a donkey speaks, it doesn't matter who says something. It doesn't even matter what their motives are to me. What does matter is whether or not what they are saying is true. The Holy Spirit is able to deal with people who might be bitter and help them through those issues.

[DrSam]

Linda,

I would pretty much agree with your statement of saying that we must judge teaching as to whether it is truth or not. The individual that I originally responded to went beyond that by implying strongly that those sharing untruths were doing so with the motive of deception and were wicked. I think that was crossing a line along the thinking you are sharing. In keeping with that, I don't condemn the brother who wrote that but simply see him as deeply hurt and angry as his post showed and his high energy expressed. I personally believe that those two components cannot be there in the negative fashion they were if there was resolution, i.e., peace that comes from healing. Again, I don't condemn but can see that the brother has not resolved to the point of healing his anger and hurts. I've been there. Hence I am not being hypocritical. I have great reasons to carry resentment, anger, and therefore pursuit of those who hurt me. I choose not but did what I could to help them and then surrendered and got my issues healed. All is tranquil now. I only see the perpetrators as immature Christians who love Jesus. I also see the same with those still in hot pursuit of GC and want heads on a platter. You can look up past post of me responding to those who have written a lot about this kind of thing.

God bless your journey.

I am just so curious why we think we have any god-given right to accuse the brethren of being unforgiving and bitter when alll they have done is warn others that some "brethren" are teaching wrongly and so disrupt the faith of many?

Hi Sam,
I have to say I agree with EAS. There are currently over 150 registered here and we all have a different story. It seems unprofitable to try to figure out the motives of each. Besides being unprofitable, it's also impossible.

As EAS mentioned, we are able to judge teaching and it is the right thing to do to warn others of bad teaching.

Unfortunately, in this post modern world of "feelings", it's hard for people to separate criticism of ideas from criticism of "the person".

I didn't take EAS's comment as a judgment on you personally, but rather as trying to make the point that some teachings need to be judged because they are wrong. Yet, when people try to point out faulty teaching they are sometimes hit with the accusation of bitterness.

It's happened to a lot of us here and when it does, it serves as a distraction from the real issue, which is pointing out flawed teaching.

Really, I don't care if a donkey speaks, it doesn't matter who says something. It doesn't even matter what their motives are to me. What does matter is whether or not what they are saying is true. The Holy Spirit is able to deal with people who might be bitter and help them through those issues.

[wastedyearsthere]

I find this thread interesting.  What I find interesting is that when I expressed concerns with GCC leadership I got the response that I was unforgiving and bitter!!  It seemed I ran across a cul-de-sac.  Blame the victim was always their game.  I wised up and saw it was a losing game and quit the game.

I do not see any of EAS posts as displaying anger or bitterness Dr. Sam.  I think you can read any of our posts as having bitterness, anger or unforgiveness!  I see my mission as warning those that are involved with the ministry and those that are thinking of getting involved.  I have moved on in my heart and life.

[Linda]

The individual that I originally responded to went beyond that by implying strongly that those sharing untruths were doing so with the motive of deception and were wicked. I think that was crossing a line along the thinking you are sharing. In keeping with that, I don't condemn the brother who wrote that but simply see him as deeply hurt and angry as his post showed and his high energy expressed.

I've honestly never spoken with anyone who said or thought that there was a motive of deception involved with GC leaders. I think they are sincere. Wrong, but sincere.

Frankly, Sam, some of the things they did to my family I would categorize as "wicked". Like sending a copy of a personal letter of rebuke they wrote my husband and me to our grown children without our permission, that's wicked. I have no doubt that they felt "led by God" to send that letter, so I don't question their motives at all. I just plain think they were wrong!

Having said that, I have no problem looking any GC leader in the eye and chatting. One of them, won't speak with us, but that's his problem. The rest do, when we encounter them in public or at social gatherings with mutual friends.

Plus, several ECC pastors have never heard our story from us and probably have no clue about the garbage that some of their co-leaders were responsible for.

[EverAStudent]

Plus, it's just plain illogical. No one except God is in a position to judge the motives of another. That's a heart issue.

So, I figure if we just keep to the facts of the GC teaching that is bad (and to be fair, not all GC teaching is bad) and our experience with that bad teaching, the people who come on and "judge" motives kind of take care of themselves.

Linda, that is a wise comment.

My comments are based on the actual statements of a gentleman that I originally addressed who appeared to universalize some very harsh and strong statements of judgment and condemnation that I strongly disagree with as one who has known most of the leaders of GC over many years as a pastor and as a National Leader. He accused or implied that these leaders had "wicked deceits that pass as good but rob the sheep." That is strong judgment of men I have known that are flawed but not trying to be deceitful or wicked. I believe that is crossing a line. That is why I stand up and defend the very ones who wounded me.

Sam, if you are genuinely concerned that someone wrongly accused a GC elder, it would be best to confine your comments to addressing the actual statement you find to be in error.  Instead, you accused the man of being unforgiving and bitter.  That is not a logical response.  

You judged his heart with the accusation of bitterness as a means of "standing up and defending" your old friends instead of simply showing why you thought the man's comments were in error.  As was already said times too numerous already--the act of not addressing a real problem with actual evidence and facts but pushing aside the real problem in exchange for a judgment against a man's heart (which no man may legitimately make against another)--that tactic is an old GC leadership technique to avoid dealing with real problems.  It is sad to see it being used here again.

Linda, thank you for you wise comment.  Sam, if you have left GCx behind, and its poor teachings, I hope you come to see the wisdom of Proverbs 26:17 as it pertains to those who have been harmed by GCx, those still in GCx who are doing the harming, and your odd choice to provide an ongoing defense on behalf of GCx.

[DrSam]

Plus, it's just plain illogical. No one except God is in a position to judge the motives of another. That's a heart issue.

So, I figure if we just keep to the facts of the GC teaching that is bad (and to be fair, not all GC teaching is bad) and our experience with that bad teaching, the people who come on and "judge" motives kind of take care of themselves.

Linda, that is a wise comment.

My comments are based on the actual statements of a gentleman that I originally addressed who appeared to universalize some very harsh and strong statements of judgment and condemnation that I strongly disagree with as one who has known most of the leaders of GC over many years as a pastor and as a National Leader. He accused or implied that these leaders had "wicked deceits that pass as good but rob the sheep." That is strong judgment of men I have known that are flawed but not trying to be deceitful or wicked. I believe that is crossing a line. That is why I stand up and defend the very ones who wounded me.

Sam, if you are genuinely concerned that someone wrongly accused a GC elder, it would be best to confine your comments to addressing the actual statement you find to be in error.  Instead, you accused the man of being unforgiving and bitter.  That is not a logical response.  

You judged his heart with the accusation of bitterness as a means of "standing up and defending" your old friends instead of simply showing why you thought the man's comments were in error.  As was already said times too numerous already--the act of not addressing a real problem with actual evidence and facts but pushing aside the real problem in exchange for a judgment against a man's heart (which no man may legitimately make against another)--that tactic is an old GC leadership technique to avoid dealing with real problems.  It is sad to see it being used here again.

Linda, thank you for you wise comment.  Sam, if you have left GCx behind, and its poor teachings, I hope you come to see the wisdom of Proverbs 26:17 as it pertains to those who have been harmed by GCx, those still in GCx who are doing the harming, and your odd choice to provide an ongoing defense on behalf of GCx.

Ever,

I have directed my comments to the direct words of the gentleman who implied that GC pastors are wicked and deceitful. That is plain and easy to understand and it judges the motives of many men I personally know that probably the gentleman does not.

Your reference concerning Proverbs 26:17 is selective since this is a public forum, I have been a contributor, it is a discussion open to all, especially those former members, which I qualify. If I am not to participate then the forum needs to be closed to the public and become one of "by invitation only."

If someone were to accuse you of being "wicked" and "deceitful" in your anti-GC stance I would contest the person accusing you of such. I would defend your heart and your motive as you love Christ. That is what I based my "odd choice" on.

My "odd choice" of providing a defense on behalf of GCx is the result of processing much hurt and forgiving extreme pain caused by these men. If you find that "odd" then I would appeal to you based on the GRACE of God which has been extended to you and me despite our personal deceptions, heresies, failings, disappointing behavior, and yet we both love Jesus profoundly. I find that His love and patience is amazing when you and I deserve worse.

I find that we Christians can select what is "evil" and judge the heart when the "evil" is never purposely intended. Our brother crossed a line when he implied he knows every GC leader's heart and calling each man's heart deceitful and wicked. I took note of that gross error.

[EverAStudent]

I have directed my comments to the direct words of the gentleman who implied that GC pastors are wicked and deceitful. That is plain and easy to understand and it judges the motives of many men I personally know that probably the gentleman does not.

Perhaps he did say it as you assert here, but I understood him to say that the actions / deeds and teachings of certain GC teachers were wicked and deceitful.  With this I generally agree due to the abundance of first hand hard evidence I have been witness to, subject to, and have read in abundance from such folks as Larry Pile.

Your reference concerning Proverbs 26:17 is selective since this is a public forum, I have been a contributor, it is a discussion open to all, especially those former members, which I qualify. If I am not to participate then the forum needs to be closed to the public and become one of "by invitation only."

Of course Proverbs 26:17 was intentionally selected and used as it is appropriate to the situation.  Further, I might remind you that you began this debate of accusations in the healing forum--a "no debate" area of this forum.

If someone were to accuse you of being "wicked" and "deceitful" in your anti-GC stance I would contest the person accusing you of such. I would defend your heart and your motive as you love Christ. That is what I based my "odd choice" on.

I think you have missed the point.  Does everyone really deserve your defense?  Do persons guilty of poor teaching deserve your defense of their poor teaching?  No.  

Should you have defended the gentleman's heart who found GC teaching and actions to be deceitful and wicked instead of accusing his heart of being bitter and unforgiving?  Yes.  

The matter is not one of defending everyone, as you now seem to indicate you would like to do, but that you accussed one man of having a bitter heart for simply pointing out that GC leadership has used poor teaching over the years, then, oddly, you defended the poor teachers as if they had not taught what was biblically inaccurate or ever acted deceitfully (and through first hand experience, I know many GC leaders who have acted deceitfully and wickedly).  I do not judge their hearts as wicked and deceitful, but I do judge their actions as having been so, and I do judge many of their teachings as having been biblically inaccurate.

Defend their poor teaching if you like.  Defend their specific deceits if you like.  But stop accusing us of having bitter and unforgiving hearts merely for pointing out the truth of this matter.