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Author Topic: Gender ID & Sexuality  (Read 94420 times)
LucyB
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« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2011, 02:25:59 pm »

I believe this thread started with a personal and riveting account of a person who experienced spiritual abuse because of being gay. The GCx church uses a heavy hand of discipline for any number of sins, including factions, pride, and anything else that rubs leadership the wrong way. Gay people experience the same type of abuse from most churches. The GCx church doesn't treat gay people a lot worse than most churches, but maybe a little worse. Most churches are horrible to gay people. I am not homosexual, but I don't believe it is a  sin. I am a divorcee. I don't believe that is a sin. I am a heterosexual. By your logic, it would be a sin for me to be a heterosexual since I am unmarried. I think GCx treats divorced women badly, but other churches do the same. It is wrong.
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Linda
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« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2011, 03:53:14 pm »

I think most here would agree that it is wrong to be unkind and treat people badly. People shouldn't do it. Churches shouldn't do it.

I also think that it is impossible to argue against someone's experience. Zach's testimony is very compelling. Others have a completely opposite and equally compelling experiences.

I agree with mapleleafsfan84 who started this thread and said:
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We know some might not agree with our lifestyle but if it is a sin it is no different than any other one that a person commits.

We don't know the specific details of this relationship and what happened with the GC church mapleleafsfan went to, but we have been told that he is in a homosexual relationship. The difficulty that is presented by this is that a church that believes homosexuality is a sin, and has been told by a member that he is in a homosexual relationship, is then forced to deal with this.

I guess what I am saying is that there is a true place in the church for church discipline. The leaders of the church, when they become aware of members boldly continuing in sin, must approach the person involved and follow the pattern in Matthew 18.

I can think of several divorced and remarried people in the GC church I attended who are on the "inside track". One of them is a pastor. In fact, I can think of two GC pastors who have been divorced. One lives in Texas, I believe. The other in MN. I'm guessing there are more.

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By your logic, it would be a sin for me to be a heterosexual since I am unmarried.
I didn't understand this comment.

Bottom line: Churches should help people who confess their sins and try to change, churches must discipline those who choose to continue in sin. People should be nice to each other no matter what.
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LucyB
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« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2011, 04:11:08 pm »

I believe that the Bible is clear about homosexuality being a sin. So, I want to put that on the table first.

Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. That's all it is. It is not a choice or a behavior. Homosexuals can be celibate. To say that homosexuality is a sin makes no sense. By this logic, heterosexual orientation is a sin unless the person is married.
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LucyB
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« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2011, 05:09:02 pm »

If people in the church are divorced and remarried, according to the Bible, they are living in sin. I'm sure many of them embrace the sin as if it is not sinful. They are not repentant, nor are they asking for help. To be consistent, if gay people are expected to end their relationships, these divorced and remarried people should be expected to annul their marriages. It will be sad for their children, but the Bible is clear, right? I'm being sarcastic, but this shows how absurd it would be to gay people to suggest that their relationships are sinful.
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Cossette729
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« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2011, 05:43:56 pm »

Zach's moms' sin is no different than any other. Greed, lust, adultery, covetousness, lying.

Greed, lust, adultery, covetousness, and lying all hurt people.  By that very nature, they are behaviors that are unloving and therefore cannot be Godly (because we know that God IS love).  Please explain to me who is hurt by Zach's moms' "sin."  In what way is their relationship unloving?

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:37-39

People get so hung up on the law that they completely forget the purpose of the law, which was to protect people from being hurt and exploited when they couldn't protect themselves.  Jesus was actually not so much into the law.  Remember, this is the Messiah who was rejected by the religious establishment because He didn't fit into their narrow idea of what the Messiah could be.  This is the Rabbi who healed on the Sabbath and broke bread with tax collectors and washed the feet of His disciples.  Getting fixated on the "rules" of being a Christian is kind of missing the point.

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He has showed you, O man, what is good.
And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
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Innerlight
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« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2011, 06:41:36 pm »

As the one who originally responded by saying, “Please help me understand that statement”, I’m saddened that as believers we are not showing unity over something like this, and the unbelieving world looks at us and says, “those guys can’t even get their act together”  Satan is smiling and I imagine the Spirit being grieved over all this back and forth.

I’ve been a Baptist all my life, and can count on maybe seven fingers the times this was brought up in church, and each time it was something along the lines of, compassion for those who have been hurt by a judgmental Christian, not bashing gay people, or pronouncing judgment on those who do.  That is strictly God’s prevue.  As Christians we show contempt for those who don’t do it our way, and the ones on the receiving end pass judgment on those showing contempt.

Yep, I agree God is a God of love, however consider this statement from A.W. Tozer:
  The apostle John, by the Spirit, wrote, “God is love,” and some have taken his words to be a definitive statement concerning the essential nature of God. This is a great error. John was by those words stating a fact, hut he was not offering a definition.

Equating love with God is a major mistake which has produced much unsound religious philosophy and has brought forth a spate of vaporous poetry completely out of accord with the Holy Scriptures and altogether of another climate from that of historic Christianity.

Had the apostle declared that love is what God is, we would be forced to infer that God is what love is. If literally God is love, then literally love is God, and we are in all duty bound to worship love as the only God there is. If love is equal to God then God is only equal to love, and God and love are identical. Thus we destroy the concept of personality in God and deny outright all His attributes save one, and that one we substitute for God. The God we have left is not the God of Israel; He is not the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; He is not the God of the prophets and the apostles; He is not the God of the saints and reformers and martyrs, nor yet the God of the theologians and hymnists of the church.

For our souls’ sake we must learn to understand the Scriptures. We must escape the slavery of words and give loyal adherence to meanings instead. Words should express ideas, not originate them. We say that God is love; we say that God is light; we say that Christ is truth; and we mean the words to be understood in much the same way that words are understood when we say of a man, “He is kindness itself.” By so saying we are not stating that kindness and the man are identical, and no one understands our words in that sense.

The words “God is love” mean that love is an essential attribute of God. Love is something true of God but it is not God. It expresses the way God is in His unitary being, as do the words holiness, justice, faithfulness and truth. Because God is immutable He always acts like Himself, and because He is a unity He never suspends one of His attributes in order to exercise another.I’ll write more later….
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Cossette729
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« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2011, 07:10:43 pm »

Innerlight, is your point that something can be loving but not of God, or that something can be unloving but still of God?
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2011, 07:25:40 pm »

It becomes almost impossible to discuss anything meaningfully when baseline definitions are absent.  For example, most Christians will readily state that “homosexuality is a sin in the Bible.”  What the Christian ordinarily means by homosexuality is that having sex with a partner of the same gender is a sin forbidden by both the Old and New Testaments.

This working definition becomes confused when the counter-argument is made that neither “sexual orientation” nor “homosexuality” are a sin because they are just “attractions” when sex is not present.

“sexual orientation”
nature of sexual preference: the direction of somebody’s sexual desire, toward people of the opposite sex or of the same sex, or of both sexes
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

“homosexual”
somebody attracted to same sex: somebody who is sexually attracted to members of his or her own sex
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The problem for the advocate of homosexuality is that the Bible condemns lust in any form, except for those who are married to partners of the opposite sex.  Therefore, declaring homosexuality or sexual orientation to be righteous, so long as sex is absent, because homosexuality is just “sexual desire” does not really meet the biblical requirement of possessing a pure mind.

“lust”
sexual desire: the strong physical desire to have sex with somebody
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Merely objecting that homosexuality is love devoid of sexual desire is linguistic nonsense.  Love between men that is devoid of sexual desire is called friendship.  Love between police officers and children that is devoid of sexual desire is called civic concern. 

By way of contrast, love between two men that includes sexual attraction is the very definition of homosexuality.  That is because the “sexual” part is a virtual synonym for “lust.”  Love without sexual attraction or sexual desire is just love.  God loves humans, but without sexual desire.  Paul loved Israel, but without sexual attraction.  It was pure love. 

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Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;(1 Peter 4:1-4) 

Does this disqualify heterosexuality as a sinful lifestyle?  Yes and no.  The truth is that a man is only ever supposed to be sexually attracted to a single woman for his entire life.  When they marry they can act on this attraction as frequently as they like, with each other, and it is not sin.  If they are sexually attracted to anyone else, it is heterosexual lust, and it too is a sin. 

Lust, sexual attraction, is a sin of the body and of the mind.

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Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (Ephesians 2:3)

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Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. (1 Peter 2:11)

But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. (James 1:14-15)

Sexual orientation is just another euphemistic figure of speech for “held captive to yet one more form of lust.”

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For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. (Titus 3:3)

What is the will of God with respect to one who believes in Christ?  To abstain from sexual immorality and from lustful passion.  Why?  After all, my individualistic sexual orientation does not hurt anyone else, does it?  Wrong.  Lustful passions that are acted out corporeally “defraud your brother in the matter of sexual expression.”  That is, sexual immorality defrauds your partner of their spiritual growth even if they were willing partners in that sexual activity.

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For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. (1 Thessalonians 4:3-6)

Finally, someone wrote that Jesus had a disdain for the Jewish Law, and by saying this implied Christians need not follow the Bible carefully either.  This is entirely incorrect.  Have you not read that Jesus kept every point of the Jewish Law?   He did not violate even the smallest of its Laws, nor did He tolerate anyone else to do the same (Matthew 5:17-20), 

Are you not aware that there is a “law of Christ” that replaces the Law of the Old Testament (1 Corinthians 9:21, Galatians 6:2)?  Did you not read that Christ expects all who call upon His name to obey all His commandments of holy living (John 14:23-24, 1John 2:4-6)? 

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As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY." (1 Peter 1:14-16)

Jesus never sinned against the Law; He never broke one little commandment, and as a result He died a perfect man, and so made the perfect sacrifice for sin.  Similarly, He expects us to keep His perfect law as well in pure holiness.  Of course, He forgives us every time we sin because we confess to Him all our sins.

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If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

Homosexuality is not merely pure love, it is love mixed with sexual attraction and sexual desire toward someone of the same sex.  It is sexual lust of the mind.  Lust is against the law of Christ.  Christ expects us to obey Him and purge ourselves of lust.  If we refuse and if we hold onto our lust, claiming it is not a sin, we show ourselves to be liars when we claim to love Him. 

Therefore, it is beyond reason to expect the Christian church to sanction homosexuality, the lustful sexual attraction of one person for another of the same sex.  Christ has not sanctioned homosexuality, and neither can His followers.

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Linda
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« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2011, 07:33:27 pm »

Quote from: LucyB
Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. That's all it is. It is not a choice or a behavior. Homosexuals can be celibate. To say that homosexuality is a sin makes no sense. By this logic, heterosexual orientation is a sin unless the person is married.
Oh, now I understand what you meant. I think this might be an issue of equivocation (misunderstanding that happens when words can have different meanings).

I was confused because the original poster was referring to being in a homosexual relationship, so that is what I thought you meant by the term homosexual. I didn't realize you were talking about someone who felt they had a particular orientation, but were not acting on it. Sex, outside of marriage, is fornication. It is a sin. It doesn't matter whether the relationship is homosexual or heterosexual. That is what I believe the Bible teaches. I also believe everyone deserves to be shown kindness and respect, even as I disagree.

The churches I am familiar with mostly believe that divorce that is a result of adultery is considered Biblical because the party that committed adultery broke the marriage vow. I am not sure what the case is with the GC pastors that I know of who have been divorced. I always assumed that they had Biblical grounds for divorce.

Many years ago, as I was pondering the idea of "God is love", I came across something that helped clarify some things. God is more than love. God is a perfect love, but also perfect holiness. I believe that often, in the interest of trying to be loving, people forget the holiness of God.

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. God bless you.

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EverAStudent
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« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2011, 07:50:24 pm »

Hi Linda,

I think the majority of what you said is quite accurate, and I agree.  However, you omitted one thought.  Homosexuality is always “acted upon” in the mind, for it is a sexual attraction toward another person of the same sex.  By any definition, but mostly by the dictionary’s definition, this is lust, “a sexual attraction or sexual desire.” 

As pointed out in my previous post, lust is not given an approving pass in the Bible.  It is rather soundly rejected as unholy, and is relegated to being called a sin.
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Innerlight
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« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2011, 08:08:14 pm »

No, that wasn't my point at all...

I was using Tozer's elequent statment to show that love is one of God's attributes, as he also has justice, mercy, etc...  I was going to try and explain it, but I would urge you to re-read it.

Point as I see it:  God is love, but that's not all he is.     
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Innerlight
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« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2011, 08:37:24 pm »

To Ever a Student's point, which I commend for being well thought out, I would add, that it is also a type of idolatry.  Rather than putting God's will first, and his clear commandments and the spirit inspired  writing of the apostle's into practice, instead, man says: No...I know better and I'm going to do it my way, even homosexuality. That is rebellion, as Paul says, "suppresing the truth".  Romans 1:21

"Knowing God they have refused to honour him as God, or to render Him thanks, hence all their thinking has ended in futility, and their misguided minds are plunged into darkness".  How would you honour God, by keeping his commandments, and allowing him to rule, reign and direct your life.  This does not sit well with lust, or homosexual behavior (in all it's forms)  

There are lists readily available in the NT as to who will and who won't inherit the Kingdom of God, who will dwell in the heavenly city, and as one author puts it, who will be permanently parked outside the city gates.  Thinking of this can be very sobering, as there will be a day of judgement.

Perhaps a re-reading of Romans 2?
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Huldah
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« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2011, 01:00:44 pm »

To Ever a Student's point, which I commend for being well thought out, I would add, that it is also a type of idolatry.  Rather than putting God's will first, and his clear commandments and the spirit inspired  writing of the apostle's into practice, instead, man says: No...I know better and I'm going to do it my way, even homosexuality. That is rebellion, as Paul says, "suppresing the truth".  Romans 1:21
This is an excellent point.

When asked what harm Zach's moms are doing to anyone, it's hard to give an answer from an earthly standpoint. One could, perhaps, say that their example encourages other people to ignore or reject any passages of Scripture that strike them as offensive. Ultimately, though, the answer rests in the character of God. Would He forbid any good thing? Do we trust Him enough to accept that when he calls something sin, it really is sin? We all have deep, unanswered questions and unfulfilled longings, whether they relate to homosexuality or something else. But we are all called to walk by faith, not by sight: faith that because God is holy and good, He will neither deny us anything that is truly for our highest good, nor freely allow us anything that works against our good and His glory.
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Linda
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« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2011, 01:09:46 pm »

Good point, Huldah. Also, the definition of sin isn't "anything that hurts someone else". Sin is the violation of God's perfect law.  Covetousness is a sin. Coveting my neighbor's donkey, doesn't hurt my neighbor. My neighbor would have no idea whether or not I coveted his donkey unless I stole it, but that violates a different commandment.
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« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2011, 01:37:55 pm »

Huldah, Linda, Innerlight: all very good observations!

What harm is coming to Zach?  He is being instructed (by example if not by explicit statements) that obedience to God's Word is irrelevant, man is the sole author of morality, Christians are mindless fools, the Bible is a fake book of forged Scriptures, Christianity is hurtful because it judges the morals invented by sovereign men, and it is acceptable and good to defraud the spirituality of another person by encouraging them to have improper sexual affections and sexual desires.  

That is spiritual abuse.  It is Christo-phobic.  That could well have an eternally harmful impact on Zach of the worst possible kind.  
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« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2011, 08:53:29 pm »

I think ideas about gender and sexuality in Biblical times were quite different than they are now. However, it is quite clear that both the Old and the New Testament FORBID sexual activity between members of the same sex. I also believe that the Biblical writers were flat out wrong to condemn homosexual sex...just to stir the pot!  Shocked
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Linda
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« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2011, 10:06:26 pm »

Quote from: G_Prince
just to stir the pot!
I think most of us posting here are used to stirred up pots! Smiley As you know, I disagree with you, but I like it that we can say what we believe, even if we disagree, and still "get along". I think that is very good thing. I know it's kind of off the subject of the original post, but I would be curious to hear why you believe the Biblical writers were "flat out wrong".
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« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2011, 12:25:11 pm »

Quote from: G_Prince
just to stir the pot!
I think most of us posting here are used to stirred up pots! Smiley As you know, I disagree with you, but I like it that we can say what we believe, even if we disagree, and still "get along". I think that is very good thing. I know it's kind of off the subject of the original post, but I would be curious to hear why you believe the Biblical writers were "flat out wrong".

Linda you are a wonderful breath of fresh air. Thanks for the response! My general opinion is that the Bible can't be taken literally...even if you try. Biblical writers were writing in a specific context and had certain prejudices and worldviews that often do not match our current ideas about morality.

For instance in Deuteronomy, Yahweh commands the Israelites to commit genocide and practice slavery. There was nothing uncommon about these kinds of activities in the ancient world. But now both slavery and genocide are considered to be some of the worst atrocities a nation can commit (even though they still occur).

What I am saying is that morality shifts. Yahweh, was acting like most warrior Gods of the time. Eradicating or enslaving your neighbors was common practice in the ancient world and few people at the time would have though it morally irreprehensible. Today, however, when we read this passage we shake our heads and wonder how a loving God could act this way.

I think there are many, many virtuous things the Bible has to say but I think it is open to critique. I don't think that just because the Bible "says so" makes it right. I think it was wrong for the Israelites to commit genocide or to stone to death rebellious children...etc. I think God gave us logic and a sense of right and wrong for a reason. If he wanted to give us an infallible law code he would have made a Christian Koran. Instead we have an interesting and complex document written over a period of 500+ years by different authors that we need to piece together, discuss and argue about.

Personally, I don't think homosexuality is immoral even if the Bible says that it is...just my two cents. Thanks for asking.  Smiley
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Linda
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« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2011, 04:54:53 pm »

Quote from: GP
My general opinion is that the Bible can't be taken literally...even if you try.
We agree on this point! I'm a sola scriptura (as opposed to "sola pastora") person (came to a strong belief in the Bible as the Final Word thanks to GC elders), but while I believe the Bible is the final authoritative Word, I don't believe it all is or should be taken literally.

Some is poetry. Some is story (parables). Some is history and can be taken literally. Some is descriptive and can not. So, we agree that not everything can be taken literally. Yay for common ground. Smiley

When I read the Bible, I try to read it with the attributes of God in mind. God is loving, merciful, just, a righteous judge, faithful, compassionate, holy, and way bigger than me. When I don't understand something, (like OT stuff), I assume that the mercy, justice, love, and holiness of God will one day explain it.

BTW, I believe in a literal 6 day creation! It's just my personal conclusion, based on nothing more than I decided that since God is BIG and GOD he could do anything in any time frame. So, why not 6 days!

Every now and then, I revisit the "Canonicity of the Bible" issues and that is a good thing. It's always good to be challenged and be able to remember why we believe what we believe.

I think your comment brings up many good questions. In GC, very little is taught about God and the attributes of God. In fact, I would argue that the focus on "obedience to pastors" is not only a wrong interpretation of the Bible (denying the role of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer), but diminishes the concept of the Lordship of Christ. Do they ever teach the Lordship of Christ? How can they when they place themselves between the church member and Christ and spend so much time asking for commitment and obedience to THEM. I think people leave GC very confused about God and the Church. So sad.

I enjoy debating important issues and find that it either helps me clarify what I believe, or change my belief if I come to the conclusion that I am wrong. A few months ago I came across a quote I liked from Ralph Waldo Emerson, "A friend is a person with whom I may be sincere. Before him I may think aloud."

Now, I shall ponder more of your post. Thanks for making me think. God bless you.



« Last Edit: March 23, 2011, 08:33:59 pm by Linda » Logged

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« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2011, 08:51:05 pm »

Linda, Thanks for another great post! I always appreciate your openness and honesty.

The world, faith and religion are extremely complex and I can't pretend to really know anything. No one can really. That doesn't mean we can't have opinions and good reasons to believe certain things...but we can't assume that we are always right. I believe in evolution and I think I have good reason to believe in evolution, but I also have no problem if you believe in a literal six days...ultimately does it really matter? Does it change our present reality? What I don't want to do is burn someone at the stake for having a different opinion than mine.

I sincerely appreciate your non judgmental attitude! The world could use a lot more of it! God bless you too!
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