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Author Topic: A note to Gary Miller, John Van Dyck, Natalie Hoffman, and the rest you  (Read 26533 times)
Linda
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« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2018, 07:31:00 pm »

Jessica,

3 different credible women have told me face to face that they met with your dad alone in the basement of your house.

Heidi told me about this 6 years or so ago when we were sitting in a nursery together watching babies and chatting. She was talking about the early days of ECC and her involvement with the church. This is not something she just made up to corroborate Suzanne's story.

Actually, one of the women even said she thinks very highly of your mom who was always kind to her and never had a problem with your dad. But, she did say that she met alone with him in your basement. In addition, there are witnesses to him picking up women for counseling alone.

Heidi,

I believe you. You had no reason to lie to me 6 years ago and your story has stayed the same. Make sure you keep your journal pages together. Don't rip any pages out to copy. I believe journal entires are legitimate forms of evidence.

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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #121 on: May 21, 2018, 08:27:04 am »

Heidi babysat for the Darlings. When Mark and Kathy came home they would talk in the basement (with kids sleeping close by). I fail to see how this is in any way inappropriate or an indictment of anyone.
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Linda
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« Reply #122 on: May 21, 2018, 08:29:52 am »

Heidi told me the pattern was for Kathy to go to bed and for Mark to meet alone in the basement with her. That is my recollection from our conversation 6 years or so ago. Perhaps Heidi can verify this.
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« Reply #123 on: May 21, 2018, 08:45:10 am »

Heidi babysat for the Darlings. When Mark and Kathy came home they would talk in the basement (with kids sleeping close by). I fail to see how this is in any way inappropriate or an indictment of anyone.

It's not an indictment, it simply indicates that the claims made by Jeromy & family that Mark was NEVER alone with young women is not true.  Apparently it happened much more often than never.

We've had college age babysitters, and even if they are family friends, my husband does not hang out in our basement with them alone after I go to bed.  Most of all because he wouldn't want the young woman to feel uncomfortable.  Second, while he has been involved in counseling/mentoring some young women (which we do as a couple) there are some scenarios to avoid to be above reproach and "basement time" would be one of them.  We don't have a "never be alone with another woman" rule, but giving someone a ride to the mechanic is different than unnecessary deeply personal chats at night.  Thirdly, it's good to let the sitters get home to their own lives and social connections (particularly true for the Darlings since the sitters probably worked for free).  Boundaries.

So, some people think it's inappropriate to spend time alone in the basement with a college-age babysitter.  I do.
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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #124 on: May 21, 2018, 09:15:18 am »

My main point is simply that talking to someone in your home with your wife and kids close by is not "alone." It was also a very small house with children sleeping in the basement. I'm sure Heidi was given the freedom to leave whenever she wanted to. Let's not twist the truth into pretzels to try to build this into something it was not.
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Badger
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« Reply #125 on: May 21, 2018, 10:52:39 am »

My main point is simply that talking to someone in your home with your wife and kids close by is not "alone." It was also a very small house with children sleeping in the basement. I'm sure Heidi was given the freedom to leave whenever she wanted to. Let's not twist the truth into pretzels to try to build this into something it was not.

How do you know this is something other than what woman's allegations are saying DLM?  Let's not twist pretzels???  So you also are a direct observer and can substantiate who is twisting the truth here?  Or are you making assumptions because the small house and family nearby?

Abuse can happen in the proximity of others without them knowing.  It can also happen in close proximity to individuals who are not observing the perpetrator or enabling the abuser.  Grooming (start crying foul) often starts in public places.  To say that people were in the house even though he was alone with young women in the basement is therefore irrelevant. 
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Shamednomore
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« Reply #126 on: May 21, 2018, 11:26:42 am »

Also, it goes against what Jeromy and Jessica have stated as fact.  There was alone time in the basement with a working do.  Jessica couldn’t have been much older than a toddler so maybe they remember it differently or have been told differently. 
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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #127 on: May 21, 2018, 11:27:41 am »

How do you know this is something other than what woman's allegations are saying DLM?  Let's not twist pretzels???  So you also are a direct observer and can substantiate who is twisting the truth here?  Or are you making assumptions because the small house and family nearby?

Abuse can happen in the proximity of others without them knowing.  It can also happen in close proximity to individuals who are not observing the perpetrator or enabling the abuser.  Grooming (start crying foul) often starts in public places.  To say that people were in the house even though he was alone with young women in the basement is therefore irrelevant.  

This is twisting the truth. The implication is clear: "it's good to let the sitters get home to their own lives and social connections (particularly true for the Darlings since the sitters probably worked for free)."

And I repeat: Heidi babysat for the Darlings. When Mark and Kathy came home they would talk in the basement (with kids sleeping close by). Were you there Badger to verify these facts are wrong?
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Linda
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« Reply #128 on: May 21, 2018, 11:38:31 am »

Heidi. You were there. We’re you alone in the basement with MD? Where were the kids? Kathy? What years are we talking about?
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Badger
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« Reply #129 on: May 21, 2018, 11:57:50 am »

How do you know this is something other than what woman's allegations are saying DLM?  Let's not twist pretzels???  So you also are a direct observer and can substantiate who is twisting the truth here?  Or are you making assumptions because the small house and family nearby?

Abuse can happen in the proximity of others without them knowing.  It can also happen in close proximity to individuals who are not observing the perpetrator or enabling the abuser.  Grooming (start crying foul) often starts in public places.  To say that people were in the house even though he was alone with young women in the basement is therefore irrelevant.  

This is twisting the truth. The implication is clear: "it's good to let the sitters get home to their own lives and social connections (particularly true for the Darlings since the sitters probably worked for free)."

And I repeat: Heidi babysat for the Darlings. When Mark and Kathy came home they would talk in the basement (with kids sleeping close by). Were you there Badger to verify these facts are wrong?

I was not there DLM, but I am not accusing someone of twisting what really went on as you are.  (Good GCx leadership play BTW) I am saying you are making assumptions that people are lying or twisting the truth based on your own opinions of what could have or could not have happened.
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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #130 on: May 21, 2018, 12:25:15 pm »

I was not there DLM, but I am not accusing someone of twisting what really went on as you are.  (Good GCx leadership play BTW) I am saying you are making assumptions that people are lying or twisting the truth based on your own opinions of what could have or could not have happened.
This thread has become quite tiresome. Let me repeat my basic point, being in a house with your entire family does not make you "alone." My opinions are based on common sense as well as the comments of those who were there. Can we move on now.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #131 on: May 21, 2018, 12:35:09 pm »

Not to be graphic for shock value, but to make a point.

DLM, when a married couple has a sexual relationship in their home when their family is home, would you say that they are having a sexual relationship "alone"?  Or would you say they are having a sexual relationship in the presence of other people? I like to think a couple would be alone with each other even if children are on the same floor they are, 15 feet away or whatever.  


My point being, we don't need to be super literal and twist words into pretzels in order to try to make a point.  Alone doesn't necessarily mean in a forest, no one around for a half mile, or whatever.  It can just mean, they have a reasonable expectation of privacy because no one else is around or they are unable to pay attention or can't hear or fill in the blank with any number of "alone" scenarios.  

Mark also spoke of being alone with a woman in the basement in a sermon.  His own words state this.


I'm not sure why people are trying to be so silly with words.  Being alone doesn't mean anybody did anything wrong, they were just alone.  

It just seems really silly to pin everything on this one phrase, when we all know abuse, sex, embezzlement, online Christmas shopping, and secret chocolate eating from a hidden stash (Okay, so I sometimes do this!) can all occur within a shared living space, especially if others are sleeping.  

« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 12:37:26 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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« Reply #132 on: May 21, 2018, 02:01:02 pm »

Agatha, your response explains things very well.

Also, thanks to all of this food talk, I just had a pretzel...but it was straight.  Bummer.
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Heidi
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« Reply #133 on: May 22, 2018, 10:39:31 am »

In the first post of this thread, Jeromy wrote to Heidi, "What is weird is how devoted you were to our church for most of your adult life."

This attitude toward someone who decided to leave after many years is really sad. Why the sneering, just for leaving? If Evergreen is so fabulous, then I would think it would have benefited Heidi to have stayed so long. Why is it necessary to put someone down for leaving, as if that shows something terrible about that person's character? If she was going to leave, she should have left sooner? Is that the message? Can't the Holy Spirit lead someone to leave a church for a different church without being scorned? Is this the model example of how to treat someone when they leave?

In a healthy church, it's fine to stay and it's find to leave if God is leading in a different direction. In fact, in the apology paper there is an apology about how people were treated when they left a GC church, and it was stated that leaving a GC church is supposed to be a comfortable experience. I'm sure there has been some improvement since the time when families were harassed mercilessly if they chose to leave, even if they stated their reasons in a reasonable way (look back at the experience of EverAStudent on this forum), but it seems there is a long way to go in the dream of people leaving Evergreen and not being talked about in a negative way. In a healthy church, people can still be friends with the people of their former church. Arms of love should be wide open. We have people at the church I go to who have left and come back, or have left and come back for certain Bible studies or events. No hard feelings, no shunning.

I am wondering if the investigator that is currently hired by Evergreen is going to talk to people who have left Evergreen, or who have been told to leave. Will she get a perspective on that "side"? In a healthy church, I don't think the leaders would need to worry about what people are going to say.  What would the investigator find? I think that the way people are treated after they leave a church reveals a lot about whether a church is healthy or whether they have some things to learn about how people are treated and talked about who chose to fellowship somewhere else.

I think Jeromy's point is wondering why Heidi stayed so long, and even helped to plant a church, when she knew about these supposed allegations from Suzanne.  Would you stay at a church where you knew that your sister-in-law was saying she was allegedly sexually "abused" by one of the leading pastors?  That is a bit weird.  His point is that Suzanne's allegations do not hold water, as Heidi staying on with the church is just another piece of the puzzle that does not fit.   Jeromy was not putting her down for leaving, he was questioning the oddity that she stayed for so long in light of Suzanne's allegations...if the allegations are true...Heidi should have left 20 years ago.  Why would she continue to support a ministry or church if the allegations were true??? 

This is Heidi- I will speak for myself.  I did know about some of the abuse earlier than many of you did.  Since 2002 I had concerns and red flags about different aspects of things happening within Evergreen, Urban Refuge etc.  I was able to stay, and stay relational and agree to disagree and develop  better boundaries for myself.  I avoided Mark Darling teachings for years,  because of the disunity and pain he had caused my brother and sister -in-law.  I was slowly learning that my identity was not in "My church", but JESUS. I also was married to a man who was also very loyal to GCM and Evergreen.  We both got involved in GCM in the 1980's, and had a long history here and very dear friends.    We had a lot of pain and turmoil in our marriage also because I wanted to leave the church much earlier than we did.  It became toxic for me to stay at Urban Refuge because  of all the secrets I know.  We did marriage counseling, our marriage was really struggling.   My husband did not understand the depth of my emotions and pain with all of the GCM and Evergreen history.  We have worked hard on our marriage, and our unity and God brought us to a place where my husband realized for the sake of our marriage and my spiritual well being it would be best for us to leave.  It was not an easy decision and not as black and white as it can seem. 
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margaret
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« Reply #134 on: May 22, 2018, 02:11:47 pm »

Love and hugs to you Heidi. This must be so incredibly difficult.
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Watching
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« Reply #135 on: May 22, 2018, 02:15:58 pm »

Heidi, thank you for sharing your heart and your experience.  I know you and you are truly a good person.
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arrogantcat
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« Reply #136 on: May 22, 2018, 04:50:10 pm »

I was in the basement with Heidi as well. I don't think being in a basement with someone comprises abuse. I dunno, maybe us burying Jess in a pillow fort was abusive to her. She didn't have much say in the matter. She was giggling, though. Maybe we were sexually abusing her, via pillows.
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DarthVader
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« Reply #137 on: May 22, 2018, 04:53:38 pm »

So the whole non-working fireplace narrative The Reckoning was built on has now vanished in the face of facts?
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arrogantcat
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« Reply #138 on: May 22, 2018, 04:59:28 pm »

Quote
So the whole non-working fireplace narrative The Reckoning was built on has now vanished in the face of facts?

It wasn't built on that. The more compelling problems with Suzanne's narrative are that she can't seem to remember how much was offered to her in terms of an NDA, and that she accused Mark of being a child abuser.

The rest is largely irrelevant.
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DarthVader
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« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2018, 05:10:28 pm »

1) Finally - someone has acknowledged the non-working fireplace was complete fiction...progress - Heidi - you may want to print this thread!

2) You've said on multiple occasions the amount of hush money keeps changing..in fact, you've said $1M  Please post a quote from SVD saying she was offered $1M..that is incorrect..She said $60K - she nows says $50K..from an offer made 14 years ago...Our own church, DLM, others  acknowledges a severance offer containing an non-disparagement agreement was made no?  The $1M came from ECCs badly incorrect tweet when they said the VDs were given a gift of $1M to "follow there dream" - no?  Please post any sources that correct my bad info..
 
3) It was wrong - very - of SVD to put Mark in the net grace child abuse directory - many on this forum said so.
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