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Author Topic: A note to Gary Miller, John Van Dyck, Natalie Hoffman, and the rest you  (Read 29799 times)
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2018, 07:47:26 am »

Watching - I know Natalie wasn't abused just from reading her blog. She's redefined "abuse" to include years of "subtle" spiritual abuse and never talks about her own failings. Maybe this will help: someone very special to me was physically abused by her husband for years - dragged across the floor, beaten, threatened with guns - she's a true survivor and a courageous hero. That's not Natalie's story - not even close. Reading her blog was enough to inform me that she wasn't living with a psychotic, violent, abusive husband and she's hurting real survivors of abuse by redefining what "abuse" means. It's a high crime in my book and deeply offensive.

Jeromy - your friend has suffered PHYSICAL abuse.  And I'm so very sorry for what she's gone through.  There are women who have silently suffered EMOTIONAL abuse at the hands of those who are supposed to love them.  Emotional abuse can be very subtle, like the frog thrown into a bath of water.  Slowly the heat is turned up til the frog boils to death, not realizing what's happening to them. Emotional abuse is insidious often for the very reason that most people don't see it happening.  There are no physical wounds.  But there are deep emotional wounds that these women courageously try to hide because they have been so emotionally wounded that they begin to think it is ALL their fault.  And it can be difficult to explain. So please don't disregard the pain and the reality of those who have endured this type of abuse.  It happens probably more than we know.  And I do recognize that there are two sides to every story.  Natalie's.  Suzanne's.  Your father's.  We are all anxiously waiting for the truth to come out to explain both sides.

I went through emotional abuse for many years.  It is not as insidious as you state it is.  It is not some sneaky and silent killer.  Maybe you have, or have not experience emotional/verbal abuse?  The issue with Natalie, she has drawn the line so thin and gray that it is barely seen, between emotional abuse, and normal relational issues and human failings in their ability to respond appropriately to every disagreement or struggle in relationship. She has also removed the intricate dynamics of relationship. Her views are so extreme and one sided.  Every single relationship has two people, two brains, two perceptions, actions, emotions, words, etc.  But Natalie seems to remove this from her equations of abuse.   Including her own failings that she brings into relationship.  She has some outlandish examples of abuse from husbands....does your husband get upset with you when you ask for help?  If you bring a situation up to your husband, does he turn it around and blame you instead?  Then your husband is abusive.  Those are just two examples I can pull from my memory of issues that Natalie would call abuse, and gas lighting and so on.  I would call it arguing, and marriage.  Why do you think everyone says "marriage is hard", cuz it is stinking hard, and a place where our selfishness in all it's ugliness comes out most.  There is no room for grace, and prayer and God changing hearts in her world.  What upsets me most....is that there are women in verbally abusive, emotionally abusive marriages, that need help, that need to be set free.  But Natalie's standards for what abuse is and isn't is difficult to swallow, and undervalues those that are truly suffering.  I feel what she teaches is dangerous, this comes from someone that suffered years of abuse.  After 9 years I had to remove myself, while this person was at work.  With help was able to move all my stuff out, and sign a 12 month lease on a apartment that could not be broken, as a way to keep myself out of this person's grip, and to have freedom.     
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searching
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« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2018, 08:54:05 am »

"9. Favoritism- Would you admit that your Dad had favorite single women he cared about?  Julie Jones and Natalie."  

Julie and Natalie were on the worship team. So was Mark. He was closer to the worship team members because he spent so much time doing music. He naturally got to know them better due to proximity.

Gary....you can go back to your pen name now. No need to act like you are brand new to the forum.
 



I would love to know how you and Jeromy know who the anonymous posters are on this forum?
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G_Prince
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« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2018, 09:39:24 am »


Watching - I know Natalie wasn't abused just from reading her blog. She's redefined "abuse" to include years of "subtle" spiritual abuse and never talks about her own failings. Maybe this will help: someone very special to me was physically abused by her husband for years - dragged across the floor, beaten, threatened with guns - she's a true survivor and a courageous hero. That's not Natalie's story - not even close. Reading her blog was enough to inform me that she wasn't living with a psychotic, violent, abusive husband and she's hurting real survivors of abuse by redefining what "abuse" means. It's a high crime in my book and deeply offensive.


Ahh the old, "I scrolled through her blog once" investigation. A surefire pathway to truth Grin. Almost as good as your earlier accusation that someone was no longer a Christian because:


I have spent some time on your facebooks/twitter/blog/podcast and see no mention of Jesus Christ and certainly don't hear His words in yours.


 Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2018, 09:48:15 am »


Heidi, Barb - it's telling that you are able to find such common logical ground with Jason Stauffacher/blonde. This man has cyber-stalked me and my father for 10 years, impersonated both of us on Facebook and through some kind of email automation program has sent literally hundreds and hundreds of disgusting emails to us.


Jeromy, I’m not sure how or why you are connecting my praise of Heidi to Blonde. Quite honestly, it makes no sense whatsoever. I do not condone Blonde’s behavior towards your family at all! If he has indeed sent all those emails, I find that disgusting and completely unacceptable. 

Blonde and his behavior have NOTHING to do with my praise of Heidi’s courage to speak up.

Peace to you, brother.

Here's what Jason had to say:

"You are awesome Heidi! Very much respect you."

Here's what you said:

"Thank you for speaking up, Heidi. <3"

That's how connected your praise to Jason...
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jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2018, 09:49:58 am »

There is no way to reason with pride and arrogance.  Claiming you know who has been abused and who hasn’t is ridiculous.  How many threats will you throw out.  How much will you attack the victims’ character.  The women aren’t seeking money or compensation.  What would be another motive for coming forward and speaking out?  Your manipulative use of fear to stifle other people has worked for you in life up to this point.   But you won’t win.  This story isn’t going away.  God hates sin.  Pride is a sin.  And no one cares about your appetizer or main course.  We are not hungry.  We want the lies to be exposed. 

Intimidating a person you've accused of intimidating other's isn't the best way to get your point across. I exposed 2 massive lies in this thread that you've conveniently, blatantly ignored, so when you said you want the "lies to be exposed" I guess I just don't believe you.
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jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2018, 09:53:00 am »

The women aren’t seeking money or compensation.

Natalie runs a pretty successful (and unregulated) life coach ministry that get thousands of views and shares. I would think getting your face on television would help bring her some new clients no? That's a pretty darn good reason
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Barb
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2018, 09:57:09 am »


Heidi, Barb - it's telling that you are able to find such common logical ground with Jason Stauffacher/blonde. This man has cyber-stalked me and my father for 10 years, impersonated both of us on Facebook and through some kind of email automation program has sent literally hundreds and hundreds of disgusting emails to us.


Jeromy, I’m not sure how or why you are connecting my praise of Heidi to Blonde. Quite honestly, it makes no sense whatsoever. I do not condone Blonde’s behavior towards your family at all! If he has indeed sent all those emails, I find that disgusting and completely unacceptable.  

Blonde and his behavior have NOTHING to do with my praise of Heidi’s courage to speak up.

Peace to you, brother.

Here's what Jason had to say:

"You are awesome Heidi! Very much respect you."

Here's what you said:

"Thank you for speaking up, Heidi. <3"

That's how connected your praise to Jason...

Jeromy, that is the equivalent of me quoting a white supremacist saying “Jesus is Lord” (which many do, btw) and saying that if you say Jesus is Lord you must believe as they do.  It’s utter ridiculousness. I know you are not a white supremacist, and you know I do not support Blonde or his alleged harassment of you.and your family.

Peace.
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Huldah
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« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2018, 10:37:42 am »

The women aren’t seeking money or compensation.

Natalie runs a pretty successful (and unregulated) life coach ministry that get thousands of views and shares. I would think getting your face on television would help bring her some new clients no? That's a pretty darn good reason

Maybe, but maybe not. It's no more valid than claiming that, for example, an abusive pastor will deny the abuse because he doesn't want church donations to dry up and deprive him of an income. (I'm speaking theoretically in order to illustrate a point. I'm not accusing Mark Darling of having any such motive.) Besides, if Natalee is already successful, why would she need even need to stoop to lying to bring in a couple of new clients? Whatever she was doing before was apparently working just fine for her. Why switch to a dubious new business strategy at this point?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 10:49:21 am by Huldah » Logged
Heidi
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« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2018, 11:27:05 am »

Jeromy-  I have a lot of questions for you-

1.  Does the marital status of John and Suzanne change the facts of what Suzanne and the seven other victims are saying happened ?
Yes, John and Suzanne's marriage has struggled.  No they are not divorced.  Does that change the history of what happened? 

2.  Why is John van Dyck wiped out of the Evergreen History?
 Have you heard John's side of the story regarding the disunity that happened between your Dad and John?  Did you know that John did address concerns he had with your Dad, and the way he treated single women. John communicated to your Dad that his behavior had negatively influenced his wife. This was communicated to your Dad in 2001.  In a letter and and in counseling.  Did you know that John and Suzanne had more than one counseling session with Suzanne's counselor and your Dad, along with Mark Bowen being involved.
 
3.  Why did your Dad not follow through on professional counseling in 2001-2002?   Is Christian counseling a bad thing?

4.  Why is Greg Larson wiped out of the Evergreen History and the Rock History? Greg married you. Are you still friends? 

5.  Why did your Dad not talk in the interview and defend himself?

 6.  Why has he not made any public statements or written statements?
You have criticized John for not speaking up. Now you have criticized him for not saying enough, yet he did appear in the news report.  At least he said something.   

7.  Why do you say that you slept 20 feet from the family room in your basement? 
It was an "L" shaped layout.  You slept in the south west corner of the basement.  The fireplace and family room were in the North east corner of the basement.  From where you slept, you would not be able to see the fireplace room.

8.  How old were you in 1987-1988 ? 
Those are the years I babysat you and you sisters.  I did have talks alone with your Dad in the family room late at night.  The rest of your family was sleeping.  Nothing sexual happened in our talks- but it definitely caused me to have emotional bonds with your Dad.  He met needs for me that were not appropriate for a married man to have with a single woman.  At  the time it made me feel special.  It did not seem odd at the time.  Now it does.  I realized it was unhealthy in 2002. 

8.  Do you think I am lying?
I verified with a few people if they remember a fireplace and fire in the basement.  It was confirmed to me by five people.  One person even remembers having Renew meetings in your basement, with a fire going.

9. Favoritism- Would you admit that your Dad had favorite single women he cared about?  Julie Jones and Natalie.
  I remember before you were courting Gretchen, You visited the New Hope location . You told me how wonderful these two sisters were who attended the Rock.  Gena and Gretchen. You said they were kind of like Julie Jones and Natalie were.  Julie and Natelie were  favorites to your Dad then. Many other singles remember that they were favored by your Dad.

  Just a few questions I wondered if you would wantv to answer.
Sincerely- Heidi

Jeromy
I do know that Suzanne met your father as a single girl.  Age 19. Your Dad was 31.
She inteacted with your father for 2-3 years as a single.  Your Dad baptized her in the fall of 1997.  They were married in 1989 .  The spiritual and sexual misconduct continued.  Your father mentored John and Suzanne , Doug and Nicki.  There was inappropriate sexual talk during their mentoring times.  I would call that inappropriate sexual misconduct that occurred.  The private alone time with your Dad was the single years.  The inappropriate sexual conversations contined after they were married?  Does that answer your questions.  I did not learn about a lot of this stuff till 2002.  It has been a long painful process for me too. 
Heidi
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Gary M. Miller
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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2018, 04:21:56 pm »

“Gary....you can go back to your pen name now. No need to act like you are brand new to the forum.”

I have no idea why I’ve suddenly become an object of acute interest here. To the best of my knowledge I haven’t been on this forum since before the Obama Administration.

Not only do I not have anything against Evergreen, but 2 years ago - as my marriage was dissolving - who did I go to? Evergreen pastors. Now make no mistake, I want justice done in this case. I want justice, repentance, consequence, and restoration. But when my world was imploding, it was Andy Gray who listened to me weep. It was Doug Patterson who sat in the dust with me. And it has been Spencer who invited me to the Bloomington location a couple years ago and with whom I’ve become good friends on Facebook (I hope that doesn’t hurt his standing) 💙😊

Does Evergreen have some doctrinal errors? Sure. But welcome to American evangelical Christianity c.2018. There is still obviously a disquieting penchant for maligning perceived ‘enemies’ but whatevs. I think there’s been improvements from what I can see.

But there is clear, credible and substantial evidence the accusations are real. And we may argue about what constitutes abuse, but for clergy to forever color a young woman’s perception of God and church in a deleterious manner is a grave transgression that needs to be dealt with.

I have nothing but love for the victims and perpetrator in this case. FWIW, I exchanged emails with Jeromy earlier today and I guess we’re getting together. To what end, I’m not entirely sure, but making peace would be terrific. Jeromy and his family need our love and prayers. In my mind’s eye, Jeromy is still this adorable, sweet, talented kid that reminds me a lot of his dad in all the best ways. And while I am now over the shock of being the subject of a thread here, allow me to say again that I have no anger or bitterness - just a desire for justice and restoration.

Cripes, fam, we gotta spend a few hundred billion years together so we might as well quit hating. 💙

« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 04:57:50 pm by Gary M. Miller » Logged
Peace
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« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2018, 07:20:21 pm »

^^^^^^ This. I came out of lurker mode just to say THIS is beautiful. THIS is authentic and heartfelt communication. Thank you, Gary.
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Heidi
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2018, 07:36:36 pm »

[quote author=jeromydaviddarling link=topic=1802.
 Heidi since you're so intent on inserting yourself into this conversation, why don't you be the one to break the news to everyone on this forum about their martial history? And while you're at it, please stop lying about the basement. I know you babysat me, and if and when you ever had a conversation with my father in the basement, it was about 20 feet from my bed. Nothing weird about that at all. What is weird is how devoted you were to our church for most of your adult life.


Jeromy-
Since you asked-
I will explain why I was devoted to our church for most of my adult life.  You are right- I was devoted to our GCM church.  I got involved in Ames, Iowa in the Fall of 1981. I was involved in the Minneapolis Church at Regina, then Evergreen Bloomington, then New Hope, then Urban Refuge -I was involved  until 2016.  That is most of my adult life.  I shunned friends when they left the church.  I wept when my sister Brenda left the church- I accused her of tubing out and not wanting to run for God anymore, I shunned many other friends when they left the church.  I judged them and believed that they were out of God's will because they left a church.  I shunned my brother John and Suzanne for a time.  I accused them of many things. I told John he was not fit to be in ministry.   Through all that- God taught me how to stay relational with my family while we had some very different ideas about church.  Through all the pain of those years- we stayed relational. We loved each other through the differences.  We held hands while our Dad died in front of us.  We stayed family-  God lead us to worship God in different places and in different ways.  Our bond was not our church anymore.  
To make a very long story short- We had some really tough circumstances and trials, over the course of 15 years- God showed me that I had put the church, and the pastors on a pedestal.  I had made the WRONG commitment.  I was committed to a church, and not Jesus.  I had to repent and confess that sin, and put Jesus on the pedestal.  The Holy Spirit led us to a different church for many different reasons.  I am still DEVOTED to Jesus.

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LisaFeist
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2018, 12:14:32 pm »

And as we are all sitting here being accused of not being Christians we have Gail Grant (Gretchen’s mom) who knows who will “burn in HELL”. Hello everyone, my name is Lisa Feist and no, I am not afraid to use my real name!
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2018, 02:13:23 pm »

Welcome Lisa!  

I did see that nasty message from Jeromy's mother-in-law written to Suzanne, an alleged victim of clergy sexual misconduct/abuse.  For those who didn't see it, it reads:  "You will burn in HELL!  HOW SICK YOU ARE!  DISGUSTING!" (then a little demon face emoji). 

5.08.18 Edited to add: it has not been verified the message was sent from his mother-in-law's real account.  If she sent that message, terrible.  If someone is pretending to be her and sent that message, terrible and very creepy.

I will say that I judge each ECC/Mark Darling supporters by their own words and actions...and I'll leave it at that for now.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 06:13:32 am by Rebel in a Good Way » Logged
LisaFeist
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« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2018, 02:47:41 pm »

Hey thanks RIAGW Smiley it is truly sad how these “followers” are representing this. I know too many people who are appalled by the way Jeromy and co are handling this, it’s quite an embarrassment. And constantly calling out to “ Anonymous “posters. I have history and am not afraid to shed light on what needs to be told. Arrogance and pride wreak from jeromys posts. Among humiliating tactics. People are truly embarrassed. But we can rest assure that eventually, maybe quite awhile from now, this will all be put to rest.
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LisaFeist
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2018, 03:16:28 pm »

Just more tactics to nullify Smiley and be undermining and better than.
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LisaFeist
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2018, 03:23:40 pm »

Isthisreal should I start asking for your real name and calling you “friend”? And posing questions ending in “no”? Big issue here seems to be with annonomisity. According to Jeromy and co.
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araignee19
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2018, 03:43:26 pm »

"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"
Matthew 5:39-44

I think both "sides" would be wise to remember this passage as we move forward. This advice is for those who are "in the right" more than anyone. If anyone thinks they are in the right in this situation, they should act in a way that shows it according to these instructions we have received from Christ.

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LisaFeist
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2018, 04:06:32 pm »

araig, I agree that sounds good and well. Until Jeromy has demolished it by The reckoning. He states his opinions as facts and has demolished any credibility for people who are still wondering. Unfortunately at this point no one dares to come forward with their dismay and disgust on how this has been handled. (Scare tactics?)  but eventually they will. This could have been handled in such a different way. So much opportunity. Again, people (in your own church, Jeromy) are appalled.
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Heidi
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2018, 04:24:40 pm »

Jeromy-  I have a lot of questions for you-

1.  Does the marital status of John and Suzanne change the facts of what Suzanne and the seven other victims are saying happened ?
Yes, John and Suzanne's marriage has struggled.  No they are not divorced.  Does that change the history of what happened? 

2.  Why is John van Dyck wiped out of the Evergreen History?
 Have you heard John's side of the story regarding the disunity that happened between your Dad and John?  Did you know that John did address concerns he had with your Dad, and the way he treated single women. John communicated to your Dad that his behavior had negatively influenced his wife. This was communicated to your Dad in 2001.  In a letter and and in counseling.  Did you know that John and Suzanne had more than one counseling session with Suzanne's counselor and your Dad, along with Mark Bowen being involved.
 
3.  Why did your Dad not follow through on professional counseling in 2001-2002?   Is Christian counseling a bad thing?

4.  Why is Greg Larson wiped out of the Evergreen History and the Rock History? Greg married you. Are you still friends? 

5.  Why did your Dad not talk in the interview and defend himself?

 6.  Why has he not made any public statements or written statements?
You have criticized John for not speaking up. Now you have criticized him for not saying enough, yet he did appear in the news report.  At least he said something.   

7.  Why do you say that you slept 20 feet from the family room in your basement? 
It was an "L" shaped layout.  You slept in the south west corner of the basement.  The fireplace and family room were in the North east corner of the basement.  From where you slept, you would not be able to see the fireplace room.

8.  How old were you in 1987-1988 ? 
Those are the years I babysat you and you sisters.  I did have talks alone with your Dad in the family room late at night.  The rest of your family was sleeping.  Nothing sexual happened in our talks- but it definitely caused me to have emotional bonds with your Dad.  He met needs for me that were not appropriate for a married man to have with a single woman.  At  the time it made me feel special.  It did not seem odd at the time.  Now it does.  I realized it was unhealthy in 2002. 

8.  Do you think I am lying?
I verified with a few people if they remember a fireplace and fire in the basement.  It was confirmed to me by five people.  One person even remembers having Renew meetings in your basement, with a fire going.

9. Favoritism- Would you admit that your Dad had favorite single women he cared about?  Julie Jones and Natalie.
  I remember before you were courting Gretchen, You visited the New Hope location . You told me how wonderful these two sisters were who attended the Rock.  Gena and Gretchen. You said they were kind of like Julie Jones and Natalie were.  Julie and Natelie were  favorites to your Dad then. Many other singles remember that they were favored by your Dad.

  Just a few questions I wondered if you would wantv to answer.
Sincerely- Heidi

Jeromy
I do know that Suzanne met your father as a single girl.  Age 19. Your Dad was 31.
She inteacted with your father for 2-3 years as a single.  Your Dad baptized her in the fall of 1997.  They were married in 1989 .  The spiritual and sexual misconduct continued.  Your father mentored John and Suzanne , Doug and Nicki.  There was inappropriate sexual talk during their mentoring times.  I would call that inappropriate sexual misconduct that occurred.  The private alone time with your Dad was the single years.  The inappropriate sexual conversations contined after they were married?  Does that answer your questions.  I did not learn about a lot of this stuff till 2002.  It has been a long painful process for me too. 
Heidi


Jeromy
 I am wondering if you are going to answer any of my questions?

1.  Why did your Dad not get the counseling that Mark Bowen, John, and Suzanne told Byron and I, he would be getting? 
2.  Am I lying by saying that I talked to your Dad in your basement, with a fire going in your fireplace?
3.  Why did John van Dyck get wiped out of the Evergreen History?
4.  Why did Greg Larson get wiped out of the Evergreen History?
5.  How old were you in 1987 ? 
6.  Why has your Dad or your Mom not spoken out ? 
7.  Why does John and Suzanne's marital status matter ? Does that change the history of what happened?
Hoping for some answers from you.
Heidi
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