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Author Topic: Faithwalkers 2011  (Read 48235 times)
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2018, 11:26:52 am »

That is the very first item listed in the BITE Model (undue influence): PROMOTE DEPENDENCE  There is a problem if Mark Darilng is the ONLY person someone can trust.  The ONLY person able to give counsel.  That people feel lost without him being available.

https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

I attended Valleybrook Church in Eau Claire WI, google it, it was in the newspaper.  Converge (General Baptist Conference) came in an did an investigation/evaluation on charges on spiritual abuse.  They determined that YES, there was spiritual abuse in the church.  These are two of the main items listed in their Final Report:

"The pastoral staff exploited the trust of many by creating exclusive dependence on itself."

"Manipulation of past issues in a person’s life was frequently utilized to develop extreme and exclusive loyalty resulting in an unhealthy codependency on a particular leader."


From his teaching, yes, I believe he saw himself as "Sally's" father.  He said he did.  He called her "his."  Twice.  Was that dishonest on his part?



Sometimes the only person someone feels they can trust is MD....I don't think you quite understand the level of brokenness that some bear when they come to the church.  So MD should just send them off to a counselor, or let God work through MD?   I have seen MD meet a new people, particularly a woman, and I have been stopped by him asking if I would take some time to talk with this woman he just met, and then he will leave to talk with others.  this has happened more than once.  And for people to accuse and claim that MD is basically exploiting these people for his own satisfaction is just sad and wrong and completely untrue.  And sadly, as one friend recently told me, that this situation (MD being falsely accused and having to be on leave) has stolen her pastor from her, she can't call MD for advice right now, when she really needed help, and it hurts her deeply.  In her words "he is like a father to me". 

And as a serious question, do you believe that Mark literally believes that he is a father to people in his church?  And as regards to Matthew 23, MD does not ask anyone to call him father, and no one calls him "Father", but many say he is like a father to them, because he loves like a father would, to many, many people.  He cares for the church as he cares for his own children. 


Additionally, often MD will initially give someone a lot of counsel (when they come to him), and when they get some good footing of their own and can start grow in healthy ways on their own, MD will ask others to come alongside said person and continue to help them grow, as he steps back and has less input into their lives.  I would think the opposite of someone "grooming" someone for their personal gain....start out with little bits of help here and there, and subtlety and ramp up the intensity so that the person needing help will only consider the Pastor's input and no one else so that pastor has total control of this person.  Seems a bit backwards to fit into your model.   And MD has never imposed his input on my life, only when I come to him for input.     
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2018, 11:28:07 am »

GTA, delusional?  lol!  He said it.   Figuratively or literally it's still inappropriate to set yourself up in that position (Matt 23, as Linda referenced).  And you filter everything through your filter that he is innocent.  So we get nowhere.  You think dependence on one pastor is healthy, I think it's part of undue influence.  As my son says "And so, here we are!"
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2018, 11:32:30 am »

GTA, delusional?  lol!  He said it.   Figuratively or literally it's still inappropriate to set yourself up in that position (Matt 23, as Linda referenced).  And you filter everything through your filter that he is innocent.  So we get nowhere.  You think dependence on one pastor is healthy, I think it's part of undue influence.  As my son says "And so, here we are!"

if you read Matt 23, and then listen to the message and how he said it, it is not the same thing.  But you will continue to say it is, so I will stop. 
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Linda
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2018, 11:34:36 am »

Quote from: GTA
So if someone calls a pastor late at night for help, what is he to do?  "I am sorry dear, but this would be inappropriate behavior on my part to share with you what the Bible says about intimate issues, so I will pray for you, but I can't talk to you, but you can call these random counselor strangers and ask for help".  Especially such as the story in the message, where the woman called him at 2 a.m. because she messed up?   Jesus had inappropriate conversations (by your standards)  with the woman at the well about her multiple sex partners.   My neighbor's priest counsels them about natural family planning...is this inappropriate?

A pastor's job is to preach the Word. The Word speaks to sexuality. This does not mean that a pastor has one on one sessions with members of the opposite sex to discuss sexuality. That is really unwise.

If a male pastor has gotten so familiar with a female congregant that she will speak to no one else then he has messed up. That said, very few people need emergency sexuality counseling at 2:00 in the morning. If someone is that desperate, then the pastor and his wife could meet the person. No need for private, late night conversations about sex. No need to refer her to a "random stranger". The pastor is the person in this situation who has to do the right thing and think clearly. The "messed up" person cannot be expected to think clearly.

As far as the woman at the well, Jesus already knew all about her. As far as your neighbor's priest, not a fan of priest's (or pastors) doing family planning counseling, but it sounds like the couple went together since you say "them".

It is precisely because we live in a sex crazed world that pastors need to stand out and be different. They need to be very careful to not allow a woman to become emotionally or sexually attracted to them and the pastor needs to understand that he is not above temptation.
 
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Digital Lynch Mob
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2018, 11:42:56 am »

"And you filter everything through your filter that he is innocent.  So we get nowhere."

You all filter everything through your filter that he is guilty. You twist his words and actions and messages to fit your narrative that he is a sexually obsessed pervert. This thread frankly makes my heart hurt. You're all so fixated on finding guilt that you've gone off the rails. I'm sickened in my soul. I'd say more, but there is no point. You don't want the Truth. You want his scalp.
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Linda
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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2018, 11:53:07 am »

If you are talking about the investigation into the allegations, an investigation should be to gather facts. It should not presume innocence. It should merely gather facts. Presumption of innocence happens in the case of a trial after the facts are gathered and presented in court.

At this point, the victims need be able to safely, thoroughly, and fairly tell their stories. In addition, Mark needs to be able to tell his story in a fair manner. There seems to be a stalemate when it comes to finding a way for the victims to feel confident about being heard fairly.

As far as this message is concerned, there are many theological problems.

It doesn't help to make generalized accusations at the posters here about not wanting the Truth and wanting scalp. What would help is if you could use your influence to get a true, impartial independent investigator, that would be great.
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araignee19
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2018, 12:10:49 pm »

You all filter everything through your filter that he is guilty. You twist his words and actions and messages to fit your narrative that he is a sexually obsessed pervert.

I don't think anyone here is accusing that Mark is a sexually obsessed pervert (you all can correct me if I'm wrong and you do believe this). I think most people here would probably say he is a man who does appear to love God and has been used by God but also may have fallen into some sexual sin and should be held accountable if so. This is not wanting his scalp.

The other "accusation" many of us have is that he has some incorrect teachings that should be corrected. This is also not "wanting his scalp." 
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2018, 12:32:55 pm »

Yes araignee19, that sums it up. 
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Huldah
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2018, 12:41:06 pm »

I agree. I've never called Mark a pervert, not even in my own mind. I do believe he's a person who doesn't always have healthy boundaries.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2018, 01:54:01 pm »

 Huldah,

I think Mark's behavior goes beyond unhealthy boundaries.

I think that him thinking it's ok, what he did with Scout, Victim A, and Victim C shows his disconnect with reality. He used them. He used them to make himself feel better, even in a twisted sexual way. It had sexual components to it in all three cases. This is perverted. And there are more victims that have not come forward. Asking someone about their sexuality before and after marriage is perverted behavior. Spending hours on the phone, spending hours in his car with a woman he is attached to, taking her to restaurants, not just once in a blue moon but regularly. This is perverted. If I was one of the victims, I would call his behavior perverted, especially because he built trust in these women as a pastor and made them feel like this was ok. Until the day they realized they had been used and that it was not ok.

I listened to this message again, all the way through. Granted he brings in more scripture at the end of the talk. Meanwhile, until he gets there, we know some of his habits with counseling women which are very troubling for a pastor.

He goes into feelings a lot. He wants all of us to feel good/great about ourselves. He says we are perfect to God, and only God's opinion of us matters. He does not talk about the war against the flesh at all.  He says that we are not forgiven for sins because of confession. He says "who dares to accuse us? Not God! God will defend us!" God wants us to feel good about ourselves at all times, he says.

So I have a question. What if a pastor has fallen into sin, say emotional affairs. No one should dare accuse him?

As I said, he makes a really big deal about that we should feel really really good about ourselves. (How about not living on the highs and lows of feelings?) But then he says at one point that he has had so much criticism that he just wants to die and not get out of bed sometimes. (Feeling a little depressed there, Mark?) The way Mark talks about feelings is that we have to drum up these feelings in ourselves based on verses. How about trusting in God by faith, and letting the feelings come or not come? I would hate to live my Christian life on feelings. I think it is very bad advice.
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araignee19
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2018, 02:05:50 pm »

GodisFaithful, please do remember these stories are still allegations at this point. I truly hope we will get the truth at some point. But what you say is only fair if it the accusations of the alleged victims is true, and again we don't know that yet.

I still say he may not have meant this all in a way which was perverted. He really might think he was helping them, if he did these things. That would still be wrong of him, for sure, but we don't know the motives even if the accusations are true.

I would encourage everyone again to stick to known facts and theology.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 02:08:11 pm by araignee19 » Logged
GodisFaithful
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2018, 02:38:17 pm »

Allegations by victims, some of whom I know.

And the "investigation" seems to be at a stand still. I'm not sure at all that the truth will come out that way.
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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2018, 03:06:29 pm »

Huldah,

I think Mark's behavior goes beyond unhealthy boundaries.

I think that him thinking it's ok, what he did with Scout, Victim A, and Victim C shows his disconnect with reality. He used them. He used them to make himself feel better, even in a twisted sexual way. It had sexual components to it in all three cases. This is perverted. And there are more victims that have not come forward. Asking someone about their sexuality before and after marriage is perverted behavior. Spending hours on the phone, spending hours in his car with a woman he is attached to, taking her to restaurants, not just once in a blue moon but regularly. This is perverted. If I was one of the victims, I would call his behavior perverted, especially because he built trust in these women as a pastor and made them feel like this was ok. Until the day they realized they had been used and that it was not ok.

I listened to this message again, all the way through. Granted he brings in more scripture at the end of the talk. Meanwhile, until he gets there, we know some of his habits with counseling women which are very troubling for a pastor.

He goes into feelings a lot. He wants all of us to feel good/great about ourselves. He says we are perfect to God, and only God's opinion of us matters. He does not talk about the war against the flesh at all.  He says that we are not forgiven for sins because of confession. He says "who dares to accuse us? Not God! God will defend us!" God wants us to feel good about ourselves at all times, he says.

So I have a question. What if a pastor has fallen into sin, say emotional affairs. No one should dare accuse him?

As I said, he makes a really big deal about that we should feel really really good about ourselves. (How about not living on the highs and lows of feelings?) But then he says at one point that he has had so much criticism that he just wants to die and not get out of bed sometimes. (Feeling a little depressed there, Mark?) The way Mark talks about feelings is that we have to drum up these feelings in ourselves based on verses. How about trusting in God by faith, and letting the feelings come or not come? I would hate to live my Christian life on feelings. I think it is very bad advice.

This is a completely false assumption that MD focuses on feelings.  On the contrary he warns about our feelings, that we cannot depend on our feelings, that our feelings cannot lead us, that we are not to act on feelings alone, etc.  He warns about living in the highs and lows of feelings.  And if you actually knew the man, or attend his church, you might know this, and his character, rather than state assumptions about who he is or what he teaches.  In this particular message he was talking about accepting how God sees us, despite our failures, so we can be confident in what Christ did for us, and be bold about the amazing things God has done in our lives despite our failings, so we can influence others for Christ.  All things perfectly laid out in God's word as well. 
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Huldah
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« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2018, 04:46:13 pm »

Huldah,

I think Mark's behavior goes beyond unhealthy boundaries.

Oh, I agree with you. I didn't mean it was limited to a boundary problem. I meant that, at the very least, no matter how this situation with Scout plays out, he has boundary problems that need to be addressed. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 04:48:07 pm by Huldah » Logged
GodisFaithful
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« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2018, 05:04:24 pm »

Thanks for clarifying that, Huldah.
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GoingClear
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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2018, 05:48:33 pm »

I would actually agree with Godtrumpsall about Marks teachings on emotions. In fact he criticizes a local multi site church in the Twin Cities that he wouldn’t name but we assumed he was talking about River Valley Church, about how they are only about emotions and listening to radio pastors other than himself is not wise because they are not “your Sheppard”. In fact this message planted the seed into leaving the Rock especially the final 10 minutes.

http://strongdisciple.com/wp-content/uploads/Love-like-god-part-3.mp3
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Linda
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« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2018, 06:00:24 pm »

Quote
listening to radio pastors other than himself is not wise because they are not “your Shepherd”

What in the world?
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bourneforHim
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2018, 06:40:20 pm »

Quote
listening to radio pastors other than himself is not wise because they are not “your Shepherd”

What in the world?


  Linda,

    You're surprised?   This was one of my first issues with Evergreen.  An attitude of them being the only ones who correctly follow God.  It's so wrong.  None follow God perfectly, but when I listened to other pastors (Swindoll) and read other great Christian authors I learned a lot.  
   This attitude at Evergreen is why I couldn't buy into the Berlin concept, and was also probably a large part of the futile effort.  The pastors stated over 800 missions attempt a plant there every year and most fail.  Why then go it alone?  You can do better?  Don't many hands make light work?  Why not learn from others about the hurdles and cultural road blocks?  Why not join in with what God is already doing rather than blaze a whole new trail?
   God's church is us.  His followers.  Not the building.  Not the denomination we follow.  The attitude that we are right and the rest are wrong is just plain wrong.  Iron sharpens iron.  A great way to be dull is to follow the same few teachers generation after generation.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 06:42:40 pm by bourneforHim » Logged
Greentruth
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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2018, 09:20:39 pm »

This is my first time posting on this site, although I have been watching and trying to understand where everyone is coming from. I joined ECC in the early 90s in Bloomington, and was a member for well over twenty years. My family moved a few years ago and we joined a Church where we now live. Much like ECC. Outreach oriented with many opportunities to serve, the things I truly loved about ECC. I know pretty much everyone from ECC that has been brought up on this site, including Scout and her husband, who I served quite close with for several years. Very little on this site resembles what I experienced while at ECC.

The only reason I have decided to take part here is after reading a post by Omegaman, a local twin cities Christian who posted a few days ago, I finally felt I understood what is going on here. I heard about this site from a friend many years ago, cult claims etc. Like I told my friend back then, if ECC is considered a cult, and the people on this site are worried about this type of Church, they have a lot of work, as most Churches I have been to follow pretty close. But after following and keeping up, mostly, for almost three months to all that has transpired here, my heart has been totally broken. Never have I seen such discord from self proclaimed Christians. If I had seen what is said here before I was saved, I would have run the other way. It is said here that this site is for healing. It has failed, as many still hold onto whatever it is they won’t give to God, and some here even proclaimed to be atheist. This is your self defined site. It’s bad enough you wallow in your own self pity, yet you want to pull others down with you. Only the Lord knows how much damage has been done here. I have prayed for you all, especially those who are here so much, you know who you are. This is NOT from the Lord, of this I’m sure.

One last comment for those who spend so much time here trying to argue. It is a waste of time. You would be better spent arguing politics on yahoo. For whatever reason, the Lord has allowed hearts here to be hardened, and only He can open the eyes of the heart. Suzanne and John, please end this. Way to many have already been hurt. If this is turning people away from being saved, is it worth it? I know you, and I know you know it’s not. There is a better way than on this site or social media to find peace. Your Brother in Christ
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Huldah
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« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2018, 11:08:24 pm »

Greentruth, if you look at the forum home page, you'll see a thread there that I started entitled "Wish List." I invite you to look through it and think about some of the concerns listed there. There are other threads that deal with GCC using their ECFA membership as proof of legitimacy even though GCC appears to be violating ECFA member standards. There are threads about Jim McCotter's history, and his influence on the teachings that have been handed down to GCC churches to this day.

On this forum, we're pointing out some real, ongoing problems with GCx. If you don't agree with our opinions, fine. But don't you think it's a little lopsided when you come here to try to scold us and straighten us out, even though we don't do that to you? We don't walk into your former church and disrupt the meetings there. We don't hold protest marches outside ECC's Sunday sermons. We do our work here on this obscure little forum, that probably got no more than a dozen visitors a day before the Mark/Suzanne controversy began. We don't actively recruit new members. We wait for people who've been hurt by GCC churches to find us and to decide for themselves whether or not this forum would be useful to them. I've said it before but it bears repeating: this is the forum I wish I had found before I decided to join a GCC church. Unfortunately, that was back in the days before GCC was even called GCC, and before anyone but a few computer scientists had anything like the Internet. I went into that church not knowing how abusive it would turn out to be, and there was no one to warn me ahead of time. If I hadn't already been a Christian before I joined a GCC church, I probably never would have given another Christian the time of day after my experience there. Yes, it was really that traumatic.

You aren't the first person to come here and scold us for writing about our experiences at Blitz/GCC, and you won't be the last. You're not the first to tell us that there hasn't been any healing here (but how could you possibly know that? does healing have to fit your preconceived notions in order to be valid?). It's interesting that you had such a positive experience at ECC; there have been quite a few visitors to this forum who would agree with you on that. I believe them. I don't assume that everyone at a GCC church had a bad experience. But it doesn't mean that the negative stuff never happened, or that it isn't still happening.
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