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Author Topic: My understanding of the Great (C)ommission:  (Read 37122 times)
Heidi
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« Reply #100 on: March 30, 2018, 12:10:34 am »

God Trumps All-

This forum is for those who have experienced, spiritual abuse, false teaching, bondage, legalism and numerous other hurts from GCM and the church they were apart of under the GCM umbrella.  In 1991 a paper was written regarding weaknesses and errors.  Sadly, those errors and weaknesses are still happening. 
Regardless of your experience or beliefs- Do not discredit the numerous people who are on this site that have found healing , have gotten support or validation from others that have similar experiences.  Please do not use this site to defend GCM.   It feels very disrespectful to me.  I have been abused and hurt in this church.

   Don't dismiss me, and others,  because it has not been your experience.  Again, the forum was not created to defend GCM. 
Heidi

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Linda
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« Reply #101 on: March 30, 2018, 06:08:27 am »

Quote from: GTA
I guess when I think of forgiveness, I think of God's example of our forgiveness of our sin, forgiveness means forgetting; to remember no more, the slate wiped clean.

False teaching should never be forgiven.

It should be corrected.

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GoingClear
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« Reply #102 on: March 30, 2018, 06:33:58 am »

GTA,
I think it’s commendable you are using discernment and learning about false teachings of certain pastors to proctect your family. I’m involved in a ministry specifically designed to reach those in the cults (unorthodox Christian teachings such as Jehovah’s Witnessess, Mormons, Islam, Christian Science, etc..) there is no greater blessing than seeing the blinders so to speak of someone in one of those religions come off as they see the real Jesus and the true Gospel of Christ. I  attended a local Gcc church for many years and would agree with you there is no unorthodox teachings being preached. I would say however, that the grey areas such as dating, parenting, etc.. did at some times become legalistic for some but we could agree to disagree on that as it affects believers differently. All of the cults I mentioned above have one thing in common. They were started from a leader (Joseph Smith of Mormonism, Charles Russel JWs, Mary Baker Eddy Christian Science, Muhammad of Islam) who claimed they recieved a  “new revelation” from God thus voiding Biblical teaching such as the Book of Mormon or the Koran. These leaders of cults deviated from the essentials of orthodox Christianity such as the Triune Godhead and the identity of Christ (Michael the archangel is Jesus in JWs, and that Jesus is a separate God and Lucifer’s brother in Mormonism, or only a Prophet such as the case in Islam).

Pastors you mentioned such as Bill Johnson, Kennith Copland Benny Hinn, or Joyce Myer are still Orthodox in their teachings but distort teachings such as wealth and health in the prosperity message or Benny’s Hinns abuse of the Holy Spirt and I would agree with your asssment of them.  My point here is if you found out that the church you atttended, the pastor was mentored and “shepparded” under Bill Johnson, Joyce Myer, or Kennith Copland but still preached orthodox Christianity would you still attend that church knowing they were heavily influenced under dangerous teachings? Jim McCotter claimed he received a “heavenly vision” while reading the Book of Acts on how to “restore” the New Testament church that no other denomination was emulating fully and claimed the authority of Apostle (CITATIONClose[4] Pile, Lawrence (2002). MARCHING TO ZION: A Personal History and Analysis of the "Blitz Movement" aka Great Commission Association of Churches (2nd ed.). Albany, Ohio: Christians United to Remedy Error (CURE). Many of McCotters teachings is what led to the “Statement of Weekness and Errors Paper” 1991 (CITATION Enroth, Ronald (1994). Recovering From Churches That Abuse.)

When I found out that McCotter heavily influenced both Brent Knock and Mark Darling personally in their beliefs and teachings we made the personal desicion to leave based on who the main pastors of Evergreen were directly influenced theologically by. We personally felt some of the issues raised in the 1991 weekness paper had crept back in regarding some of the teachings in the grey areas, and that we couldn’t serve and fellowships without a discouraged heart.  All I would say is you be consistent with your own Pastors and use the same discernment as you do against the organizations you listed above. Ultimately It comes down to the individual and where the Holy Spirit leads them personally. You are not wrong for staying and we were not wrong for leaving. For some the environment in a GCC church that models much of what we left  McCotter believed works for some. For others it can and has done some damage and that’s when one must decide to find a different church like we did based on our own convictions. It was never a personal issue we had with the pastors or leaders and that’s also why I chose to remain anonymous here as to not affect my relationships I hold dearly with my blood family and former church family who still attend that church,  but a doctrinal change we felt the Holy Spirit leading us too. We reconciled Biblically, forgave, and trusted in Gods sovereignty that He indeed works all things for good.

Your brother in Christ.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 07:31:33 am by GoingClear » Logged
GodisFaithful
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« Reply #103 on: March 30, 2018, 08:33:50 am »

GTA,

You stated "there is no false teaching in GCx".

I personally think that you don't see it because you are in it.  As in, the frog in the water that is gradually heating up until the frog is toast.

I am going to ask you.  Have you heard Brent Knox teach that he is in the place of Moses, as a pastor, and that the people in his church should thus follow his lead, like being back in the wilderness, and if you mumble you need to think about how the earth swallowed up the mumblers? Have you heard that one? Because I heard it and was in shock. I think it came from his days in Ames, quite probably right from the mouth of Jim McCotter.

Has he stopped teaching that? Because it is a grave error and twisting of Scripture in order to control people "under" him.  I realize that Brent has kind of a laid back, aw shucks, me do any harm to anyone?, kind of style.  That does not make it less wrong and dangerous and cultish mind control.

If you sit and hear that, as a member of the congregation, as far as I can see you don't have a lot of choices in your mind:  Ok, I will go along with that and never grumble about my fearless leader, he pretty much hung the moon, he is on par with Moses. Or, I am going to secretly think about this but I better not question this Moses guy. Or, outright "rebel" which would be, I am going to stay in this church because I have been here forever and have wonderful friends and agree with a lot of stuff so I will give this a pass, but I had better not grumble about it. 

Does Brent still teach this? And if he has stopped, did he publicly clearly state that this was wrong teaching, he was in error?

What about Mark Darling teaching that the congregation is his bride? This is heresy. This is passing from cultish to outright cult. And if he does not teach that any more, did he publicly and humbly state that he was so wrong to claim to be the husband of the church?  The church is the bride of Christ and Mark was putting himself in the place of Christ. This is scary wrong.

Are you going to give these false teachings a pass?
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Linda
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« Reply #104 on: March 30, 2018, 08:49:13 am »

Quote from: GTA
I guess when I think of forgiveness, I think of God's example of our forgiveness of our sin, forgiveness means forgetting; to remember no more, the slate wiped clean.  I feel like true forgiveness means you move on, you don't think about it, it does not conjure up feelings any more.

Are you saying that with forgiveness the slate is wiped clean in God's eyes (i.e. He remembers our sins no more). Or, are you saying the sin is wiped clean both in God's eyes AND for people here on Earth.

Extreme example.

Say someone was promiscuous when they were single, but repented. Are they now a virgin because God remembers their sin no more? Can they keep this from their future spouse tell him/her they are a virgin because God remembers their sin no more? Would they be lying if they did?
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Clear
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« Reply #105 on: March 30, 2018, 09:33:43 am »

Quote
7 – Married couples would have their nights planned as well.  Daily bible and religious functions were the rule. Family time and time with non GCx people was limited by this scheduling. Only married people were allowed to have a “date night”.  Single people had a responsibility to pray daily and to avoid the “sins of the flesh”.  Dating was not permitted unless it was OK’d by a church leader and only within the members of the cult.  Dating was only for the purpose of marriage.  The rules of dating were quite strict.  Sex was saved for marriage so that the men in the group would have virgins as wives.  Flirting with members of the opposite sex was prohibited unless the couple had permission to date.  Personally intrusive rules were given for things to do while dating.  Even sex positions were discussed by church leaders to members of the flock.




But how can someone take this person's words in one matter, but in the same breath they make such a blatantly false statement that singles are encouraged to save sex for marriage so the men can have virgin wives.  

I wanted to point out that I took the statement (by the person Linda quoted) about saving sex for marriage to mean that this person didn't think you needed to save sex for marriage.  I see that this is not true in what she posted elsewhere.  She must have meant that extrabiblical ideas were added on to teachings about reasons to save sex.  Here is what she said:

First of all, I want to make it clear that in my opinion, sex is something that should belong in a loving marriage.  I am not promoting the practice of pre-marital sex. But, it seems so wrong to take the personal selection of a mate and give it to a church leader.  To me, our personal lives and the personal choices we make in our lives are none of our church leader's business. Those decisions are between us and our God.

If you, GTA, mistakenly read it the same way as I did, then perhaps it changes the credibility argument.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 11:51:54 am by Clear » Logged
Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #106 on: March 30, 2018, 10:43:16 am »

GTA,
I think it’s commendable you are using discernment and learning about false teachings of certain pastors to proctect your family. I’m involved in a ministry specifically designed to reach those in the cults (unorthodox Christian teachings such as Jehovah’s Witnessess, Mormons, Islam, Christian Science, etc..) there is no greater blessing than seeing the blinders so to speak of someone in one of those religions come off as they see the real Jesus and the true Gospel of Christ. I  attended a local Gcc church for many years and would agree with you there is no unorthodox teachings being preached. I would say however, that the grey areas such as dating, parenting, etc.. did at some times become legalistic for some but we could agree to disagree on that as it affects believers differently. All of the cults I mentioned above have one thing in common. They were started from a leader (Joseph Smith of Mormonism, Charles Russel JWs, Mary Baker Eddy Christian Science, Muhammad of Islam) who claimed they recieved a  “new revelation” from God thus voiding Biblical teaching such as the Book of Mormon or the Koran. These leaders of cults deviated from the essentials of orthodox Christianity such as the Triune Godhead and the identity of Christ (Michael the archangel is Jesus in JWs, and that Jesus is a separate God and Lucifer’s brother in Mormonism, or only a Prophet such as the case in Islam).

Pastors you mentioned such as Bill Johnson, Kennith Copland Benny Hinn, or Joyce Myer are still Orthodox in their teachings but distort teachings such as wealth and health in the prosperity message or Benny’s Hinns abuse of the Holy Spirt and I would agree with your asssment of them.  My point here is if you found out that the church you atttended, the pastor was mentored and “shepparded” under Bill Johnson, Joyce Myer, or Kennith Copland but still preached orthodox Christianity would you still attend that church knowing they were heavily influenced under dangerous teachings? Jim McCotter claimed he received a “heavenly vision” while reading the Book of Acts on how to “restore” the New Testament church that no other denomination was emulating fully and claimed the authority of Apostle (CITATIONClose[4] Pile, Lawrence (2002). MARCHING TO ZION: A Personal History and Analysis of the "Blitz Movement" aka Great Commission Association of Churches (2nd ed.). Albany, Ohio: Christians United to Remedy Error (CURE). Many of McCotters teachings is what led to the “Statement of Weekness and Errors Paper” 1991 (CITATION Enroth, Ronald (1994). Recovering From Churches That Abuse.)

When I found out that McCotter heavily influenced both Brent Knock and Mark Darling personally in their beliefs and teachings we made the personal desicion to leave based on who the main pastors of Evergreen were directly influenced theologically by. We personally felt some of the issues raised in the 1991 weekness paper had crept back in regarding some of the teachings in the grey areas, and that we couldn’t serve and fellowships without a discouraged heart.  All I would say is you be consistent with your own Pastors and use the same discernment as you do against the organizations you listed above. Ultimately It comes down to the individual and where the Holy Spirit leads them personally. You are not wrong for staying and we were not wrong for leaving. For some the environment in a GCC church that models much of what we left  McCotter believed works for some. For others it can and has done some damage and that’s when one must decide to find a different church like we did based on our own convictions. It was never a personal issue we had with the pastors or leaders and that’s also why I chose to remain anonymous here as to not affect my relationships I hold dearly with my blood family and former church family who still attend that church,  but a doctrinal change we felt the Holy Spirit leading us too. We reconciled Biblically, forgave, and trusted in Gods sovereignty that He indeed works all things for good.

Your brother in Christ.

GoingClear

Thank you for this response, and I see your points, and I so appreciate your honesty and maturity in all that you said.  I understand where you are coming from, and I understand why you left.  I value your healthy viewpoint "we were not wrong for leaving, you are not wrong for staying".   I also appreciate what you are doing to share the true gospel with those in unorthodox religions!  That is amazing, and I pray God will guide you in this, and give you many opportunities to share with those that are held in bondage to false teachers and a false gospel!  

When I hear the phrase "I had a vision from God...."  I cringe and want to run the other way.  I don't say the following in a proud way (if you knew me, you would know I don't brag about myself, pretty much never) , but I feel I have a gift of discernment, it is not a pleasant gifting to have.  It asks of a person to say hard things, to point out flaws, it is terrible.  I also feel a weight from this, there is so much wrong going on in modern Christianity, it scares me. I don't go around telling others where they are wrong, but from time to time I have spoken up about ministries, and mostly I pray.  I have had friends come to me (within and outside of GCx) asking me about new ministries (so many new ministries and authors and blogs...so many voices) what I know, what I have read, my thoughts and initial reactions because they know my level of discernment and heart on these matters.    

I don't know if I would say exactly that the false teachers I mentioned are fully orthodox in their teachings. When one teaches that our power supersedes God's, there are some major flaws that goes against the Gospel and is a dangerous teaching.  When a preacher starts to chip away at the omnipotence of God, this is no longer orthodox Christianity, but in a sneaky back door sort of way, how satan operates to deceive many.  I don't know who Jim McCotter is, except for the little information I have read online.  I believe the man had some wisdom. I would also say his "vision" was not gibberish like so many today that talk about their visions and prophesies from God.  Did he claim it to be a new revelation from Christ that gave him the permission to deviate from the word?   I don't think so but maybe you and expound on this?   His vision was not out of line scripture.  However, him claiming the authority of a apostle...I highly disagree with, this is a slippery slope.  But on the other hand I wonder the context of his statements, is that information in the resources you cited?  What has happened in Jim's life after church is indicative of a man who lacked Godly wisdom though.  A fall from grace certainly.  Do you know what caused him to leave...was their dissension  with in the church leaders?  Was he pushed out?  I know he desired to impact media for Christ, and needed a lot of money to do this, and left perusing business deal after business deal leaving some disaster in his wake, also another sign that would make me question his walk with Christ. To me it sounds like GCx was gracious in the way they separated themselves from Jim, not to dishonor him as it sounds like he had some admirable qualities that encouraged people to be bold in their faith.  But they did separate.  They took time to seriously re-evaluate what the church was, and going to be in the future.  

As far as discerning my own church...I have had the opportunity to know MD personally.  I have watched him over the years, I have witnessed him in good times and in bad.  I have witnessed his character first hand, not just as a congregant.  I know his wife, I am  close to some of his adult children.  He does not hide anything.  All of his messages are online for anyone to listen.  He preaches truth, his message is a pure gospel message, his desire to see young people grow in faith, to be successful in their Christian walk is his greatest desire.  To have others understand the all encompassing peace and love of Jesus Christ drives him.  Not power, not authority, not money, not fame, just the gospel.  I know his heart and life, I know that he values God's word above all else.  He does not twist scripture.  He also gives a lot of advice, personally and from the pulpit.  Some do not like this, but his advice does not ever go against scripture.  He knows the dysfunction that so many come out of when they come to Christ, and he desires nothing less then to help people succeed spiritually and personally.  A false teacher would not encompass these qualities.  

Below are some points I think you are probably aware of, but I will list them here as I know many people visit this forum and are reading these posts.

Traits of a false teacher/teachings..how would you recognize a false Christianity?

1.  Different source...where does the message come from?  The true teacher sources what he says from the Bible, the false teacher relies on his own creativity, makes up his own message.

2.  Different message-what is the substance of the message?  For the true teacher, Jesus Christ is central.  For the false teacher Jesus is in the margins "They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who brought them"  2 Peter 2:1  (sounds very much like Word of Faith movement).

3.  Different position-in what position will the message leave you?  "They promise....freedom while they themselves are slaves of depravity, for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him" 2 peter 1:4

4. Different Character-What kind of people does the message produce?  The true believer pursues goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness and love.  2 peter 1:5

5.  Different Appeal-Why should you listen to the message?  The true teacher asks "what has God said in his Word?" while the false teacher asks "what do people want to hear?  What will appeal to their flesh?"

6.  Different Fruit-what result does the message have in people's lives?  The true believer is effective and productive in his or her knowledge of Jeusu 2 peter 1:8

7.  Different end-Where does the message ultimately lead you?  The false believer experiences "swift destruction" 2 peter 2:1


And here

We are told in 1 John 4:1 and other passages to “test” the message of a teacher or prophet to see if what they say is truly from God. The reason is that “many false prophets have gone out into the world” and are leading believers astray. What are some of the identifying marks of a false teacher/prophet?  It is often said that the best way to recognize a counterfeit is to be familiar with the real thing. A Federal agent doesn’t become an expert in identifying counterfeit money by studying counterfeit bills. He first studies genuine money until he becomes so familiar with the real thing that he can easily tell the difference between genuine and counterfeit bills. In the same way, the best way to avoid being deceived by a false message is to study and know the true message as taught in the Scriptures. The Bible itself stands as the final authority against which everything else is to be measured. As Messianic theologian Tim Hegg says, “A person determines if a stick is crooked by putting it next to a straight stick. Let the Bible be your straight stick.”

1) False Prophecy
The most obvious way to tell if someone is a false prophet is if they prophesy falsely. The Torah says that we are not to revere the one who speaks in the name of the Lord presumptuously (Deuteronomy 18:22). That is to say, if someone claims to speak in the name of the Lord and they declare that something will occur in the future, and what they declared doesn’t come to pass, we are to disregard their teachings.
2) Abandonment of God’s Ways
Even if someone gives a prophecy and it comes to pass, they still might be a false prophet. According to Deuteronomy 13:1-5, if a prophet tries to convince you to “leave the way in which the lord your God commanded you to walk,” you are not to listen to their words.
3) Distortion and Minimization of the Gospel
An entire book of the Bible—the book of Galatians—is dedicated to defending the Gospel against false teachers who were attempting to pervert the true message (Galatians 1:7). The apostle Paul spends considerable time exposing the false doctrine that salvation by grace through faith in Yeshua wasn’t enough.
Having made that point, it could perhaps be said that one of the identifying marks of a false teacher is one who consistently stresses other biblical doctrines, whatever they may be, at the expense of the Gospel. For instance, as beautiful as the Torah is and as much as the Scriptures support its ongoing authority in the lives of believers, it doesn’t save you or make you righteous. This is not to diminish the value of the Torah, but to elevate the Gospel to its rightful place.

4) Obsession Over Foolish Controversies
According to Paul in 1 Timothy 1:3-7, false teachers lack understanding of the Scriptures and sound theology. Therefore, they “devote themselves to myths” and drag people into “vain discussion.” In a number of places in the New Testament, such as 2 Timothy 2:16, we are told to stay away from “pointless discussions.” Why? “For people will become more and more ungodly.” Thus, a false teacher who promotes foolish controversies leads people into ungodly behavior.
5) Selfish and Opportunistic Behavior
The prophet Micah describes false priests and prophets as those who “teach for a price” and “practice divination for money” (Micah 3:11). It appears that false teachers are concerned only with entertaining the flock in order to achieve their own selfish gain.

And from Desiring God:
 https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/the-surprising-truth-about-false-teachers
Watch Their Doctrine — and Lives

What we might find surprising — both from Jesus and his apostles — is how revealing the everyday lives of false teachers are about their falseness. They are not just false in their teaching, but also in their living.
Beneath their doctrinal error, however subtle and deceptive, we will find ethical compromises in tow. And those don’t usually come out overnight; they take time. But they will come. Here’s how Jesus prepares us in Matthew 7:15–20:
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.” (see also Luke 6:43–44)
Jesus says it twice so that we won’t miss it: You will recognize them by their fruits. His warning may sound clear and simple at first, but as we all know, trees don’t bear fruit overnight. Eventually, however, the fruit (or lack thereof) will be manifest.

This site was also interesting
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/7char.html


I have tested, as the Bible instructs us to do.  I also believe that if the local ECC leaders were influenced by Jim, God helped them let go of any false doctrine they may have learned or been influenced by, because it is not in their lives.  I cannot dispute the evidence.  There are gray areas, and I fully agree with your statement that the gray areas effect believers in different ways.  I happen to agree with most of the gray areas, because I find them to be backed scripturally, and they have been very beneficial in my own walk.   But as you said we all need to let the Holy Spirit guide us.  On a final note I will say I know they are absolutely not perfect men or leaders.  I do not hold them on a pedestal, and because I see their lives, I know they are imperfect, they make mistakes, they can offend others; we all can and do.  But they continually strive to be Christ-like, and continue the walk.  
Bless you,  GTA
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 12:30:24 pm by Godtrumpsall » Logged
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« Reply #107 on: March 30, 2018, 10:48:10 am »

GTA,

You stated "there is no false teaching in GCx".

I personally think that you don't see it because you are in it.  As in, the frog in the water that is gradually heating up until the frog is toast.

I am going to ask you.  Have you heard Brent Knox teach that he is in the place of Moses, as a pastor, and that the people in his church should thus follow his lead, like being back in the wilderness, and if you mumble you need to think about how the earth swallowed up the mumblers? Have you heard that one? Because I heard it and was in shock. I think it came from his days in Ames, quite probably right from the mouth of Jim McCotter.

Has he stopped teaching that? Because it is a grave error and twisting of Scripture in order to control people "under" him.  I realize that Brent has kind of a laid back, aw shucks, me do any harm to anyone?, kind of style.  That does not make it less wrong and dangerous and cultish mind control.

If you sit and hear that, as a member of the congregation, as far as I can see you don't have a lot of choices in your mind:  Ok, I will go along with that and never grumble about my fearless leader, he pretty much hung the moon, he is on par with Moses. Or, I am going to secretly think about this but I better not question this Moses guy. Or, outright "rebel" which would be, I am going to stay in this church because I have been here forever and have wonderful friends and agree with a lot of stuff so I will give this a pass, but I had better not grumble about it. 

Does Brent still teach this? And if he has stopped, did he publicly clearly state that this was wrong teaching, he was in error?

What about Mark Darling teaching that the congregation is his bride? This is heresy. This is passing from cultish to outright cult. And if he does not teach that any more, did he publicly and humbly state that he was so wrong to claim to be the husband of the church?  The church is the bride of Christ and Mark was putting himself in the place of Christ. This is scary wrong.

Are you going to give these false teachings a pass?

no not a pass because I also know they do not mean these points literally.  They are making points, they are teaching.  Mark does not believe that the congregation is his bride.   
 You are taking teachings out of context.  Typically they share in series of messages.  What is the point, and what are they teaching in the messages or the series?  The context needs to be considered always. 
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« Reply #108 on: March 30, 2018, 10:51:11 am »

Quote from: clear
If you mistakenly read it the same way as I did, then perhaps it changes the credibility argument.

Honestly, I just took that part as a "matter of fact" statement about abstinence, not a comment on abstinence not being Biblical.

It struck me as typical that someone (GTA?) would miss the underlined part, miss how the underlined part related to my comment, pretty much ignore the underlined part, and then try to dismiss the creepy sex positions part that way.

I was actually wondering if anyone had heard this being taught.

In fact, the part I underlined jumped out at me only because someone actually told me that in her couples small group, sex positions were actually discussed which no one in their right mind would think appropriate for a small group discussion. Operative words: in their right mind
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« Reply #109 on: March 30, 2018, 11:06:53 am »

Quote from: GTA
Mark does not believe that the congregation is his bride.

Teaching was Fanning the Flame. 2005. All church meeting held at Hosanna Church in Lakeville.

If you cannot see what is wrong with this and how cult like it is, I can't help you.

THERE IS ONE BRIDE.

THERE IS ONE GROOM.

THE PASTOR IS NOT THE GROOM.

"I want you to look around you for just a moment. Look around you. Look at the person next to you. People behind you. This is the bride you belong to. We are borrowing tonight another bride's home. But this is the bride you belong to. And the question that we want to ask ourselves tonight is how much do you love her…Do you know how we know that you are really passionately committed to Christ the Head? Because of your passionate commitment and devotion to His body the bride. The people sitting next to you. Your love goes no deeper than that. Your commitment goes no deeper than that. You've had mine, as you know, for 18 years and you'll have it till I die. Because when I love you, when I think wonderful things about you, I'm loving God. I'm loving Christ. You see, God, He put me in this church. He didn't put me in the church down the street. Do I hate the church down the street? No because they are also the bride of Christ. But that's another man's bride. You're mine..."

One of the qualifications for elder is able to teach. Part of being able to teach is understanding the subject you are teaching. Another part is being able to communicate clearly and accurately. This teaching is a theological nightmare. It got explained as "Well, Mark is such a evangelist, that sometimes he gets carried away and says things that he really doesn't mean."

They are always explaining away. They are never correcting.

This talk was thought so highly of that they GAVE AWAY copies for free! We happened to have purchased our copy. Have it in our documentation file. Our very large documentation file.

The main point was commitment to your local church FOR LIFE.

It has never been untaught or corrected.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 11:16:21 am by Linda » Logged

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araignee19
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« Reply #110 on: March 30, 2018, 11:27:03 am »

I also know they do not mean these points literally.  They are making points, they are teaching.  Mark does not believe that the congregation is his bride.   
 You are taking teachings out of context.  Typically they share in series of messages.  What is the point, and what are they teaching in the messages or the series?  The context needs to be considered always. 

Look, I think it is possible that he didn't mean this literally. But he said it literally, and many people have taken it that way. If he meant it totally differently than how we are interpreting it, he still has a responsibility to clarify what he meant. He has a responsibility to ensure he states teaching clearly and understands how people have take it. If it is only a false impression (which I'm not convinced of myself), he still needs to publicly correct the false impression this gave, period. Since he hasn't, I can personally only conclude he doesn't correct it because he doesn't think it is wrong.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #111 on: March 30, 2018, 11:42:16 am »

As far as inappropriately familiar sexual speech, I know I’ve said it before but I will bring it up again.  A pastor said in front of hundreds of people after having his wife stand up to be introduced, “After I met (wife’s name),  I had an erection for a year.”   This kind of stuff happened a lot, it was awkward, and it made me feel really uncomfortable and quite frankly I thought it objectified his wife.  When you couple that with the teaching that women were to have no leadership roles, women were encouraged to stay home and homeschool (we have citations for all this stuff), and women were to be sexually available as much as possible, you have a really strange sexualized environment at times.  I actually think this has lessened over the years and there are more boundaries now although I’ve heard this is not the case in at least one location.  


Churches aren’t for locker room talk.  Small groups are not for sex therapy.  Women are more than walking reproductive organs.  And it’s none of my pastor’s or small group leader’s business what my sex life is like.  And as a small group leader, it was none of my husband’s business what the other couples in our small group were like.

Put that together then with the extreme focus on seeking  counsel for courtship.  Bill Young’s “Swerver” message which is still up by the way.  The extrabiblical rules for relationships.  It’s clear this group has some invasive, unhealthy ideas over the control of someone else’s sexuality.  In addition we have direct testimony from people who have been told they should stop having children.  Don’t believe it?  It’s here.  The testimony is all here.


Now, since people are so into questioning how Biblical this website is or how in the word people here are, could you please tell me in the Bible where it says we are to be talking about intimate marriage details in worship and teaching services?  Where is it mentioned that we share intimate details with our small groups?  It’s not mentioned.  In fact we’re directed specifically not to let things defile a marriage bed or to intrude into a sacred and holy union.  Our marriages are sacred.  Period.  It’s none  of your beeswax, GC.  


« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 11:50:38 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Godtrumpsall
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« Reply #112 on: March 30, 2018, 11:55:48 am »

I also know they do not mean these points literally.  They are making points, they are teaching.  Mark does not believe that the congregation is his bride.   
 You are taking teachings out of context.  Typically they share in series of messages.  What is the point, and what are they teaching in the messages or the series?  The context needs to be considered always. 

Look, I think it is possible that he didn't mean this literally. But he said it literally, and many people have taken it that way. If he meant it totally differently than how we are interpreting it, he still has a responsibility to clarify what he meant. He has a responsibility to ensure he states teaching clearly and understands how people have take it. If it is only a false impression (which I'm not convinced of myself), he still needs to publicly correct the false impression this gave, period. Since he hasn't, I can personally only conclude he doesn't correct it because he doesn't think it is wrong.

So the hundreds of people that heard that message that day...that walked away understanding that MD did not believe that the church was his literal bride like some Jonestown cult leader, but that he was making a point.  I vaguely remember that message, what I do remember is looking at the person sitting to either side of me, and encompassing extreme value of loving my brothers and sisters in Christ, and loving the body of Christ.  For a person to walk away thinking that he was speaking literally...I just don't have words for that, again, you cannot ignore context, it is ridiculous (I am saying this to everyone, not just you).  And why don't you guys show how this is a theme in MD's life, that he feels the church is HIS bride, and how that plays out in his life, and the church, the fruit of his life, etc.   Where are the hundreds of messages where MD elevates himself to this position?  There is nothing to correct.  He made an excellent point, a strong point.  some may not agree with his method to make his point, but he did nothing wrong; people choose to pick apart and take out of context a small part of his message.  Does anyone have this message they can share?  I can't find it online.  

I posted a long response to Goingclear with some excellent points about false teachers, I do recommend reading that post as well.    
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #113 on: March 30, 2018, 12:04:35 pm »

What point do you think he was trying to make then? 
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Linda
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« Reply #114 on: March 30, 2018, 12:09:09 pm »

"See it's easy to say I submit to God, but do you know how we know that you submit to God, you know how I knew if I was submitting to God? I was willing to submit to the spiritual authority in my life and listen to what they had to say and apply what they told me and seek to implement the instruction of my trainers…I had to decide, would I allow someone else to be my trainer, my spiritual master, so to speak. Would I embrace and follow the teaching and instruction of my leaders as they followed Christ? Would I place myself under the God given authority of my elders? Would I defer to them and let them mold me. This would demonstrate my submission to God because Christ asked me to do it…The question is, "What will you do with what your overseer says?" I made my choice. This was the single most important decision I made and have continued to make. I have surrendered my will, not only to God, but I have surrendered it to this movement called Great Commission Churches. I've surrendered to John Hopler. to Rick Whitney. To Tom Short who I work with. I've surrendered it to Hershel Martindale. I've surrendered it to Brent Knox. –Mark Darling

Here are some friendly tips.

Don't surrender your will to a church movement.

Don't surrender your will to John Hopler.

Or, Rick Whitney.

Or, Tom Short.

Or, Hershel Martindale.

Or Brent Knox.

And if you are John Hopler, Rick Whitney, Tom Short, Hershel Martindale, or Brent Knox and you hear Mark Darling say he is surrendering his will to you, you might want to say, "Hey, Bud, I appreciate the complement that's a really bad idea."

As far as spiritual masters, don't have one.

Matthew 23:8:But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

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araignee19
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« Reply #115 on: March 30, 2018, 01:09:37 pm »

GTA: Yes, even if hundered of people interpreted it the way you say, if one came to him and said "uh... that's not correct the way I heard you say it," he should publicly address that. Period. But there is not just one person who heard it the way we did. Many did. Many on this site alone did. I challenge Mark to publicly correct us if he does not think this. It would be easy, and then we would have no grounds to accuse him of this particular false teaching.

In one of my many conversations with leadership at the Rock, Fort Collins, during the process of trying to address what I saw as false teachings, I was told by the leaders "if we don't lead them, these people won't grow." They took personal responsibility for the health of their "disciples." They said they believed they would be held accountable before God for my spiritual health when they die. I have a difficult time believing this false interpretation of their role in my spiritual didn't somehow stem from these, and similar, incorrect teaching being discussed here. And let me be clear, what they said is herasy. They put themselves in the place of God in my life.

And to preempt the question that is likely coming, I challenged them at the time to clarify what they meant and gave an opportunity for them to take it back. They 100% stood by what they said. When I brought it up to other leaders, those other leaders defended them and their false ideas.

This is why it is critical for a pastor to correct publicly. Whether we heard him wrong, or he spoke wrong, or he intentionally misled, the only acceptable solution is public correction to all who heard it. If we heard it wrong, probably others did too. He should make sure no one else heard it wrongly, if he does actually disagree with what we are accusing.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #116 on: March 30, 2018, 01:46:16 pm »

What about Brent Knox teaching that he is in the place of Moses, as a leader and pastor?Huh?

I have not heard that he has stopped teaching this. And it is false teaching. 

I was there when he taught this so I know all the context.  The context of the whole teaching was that we were to follow his lead and not grumble.

With a little gentle reminder, in case it had been a while since we had read about Moses, that the grumblers who did not want to follow Moses met and terrible, horrendous, untimely death.  Just a little friendly nudge there to get us to do the *right thing* and steer us way around that hole in the ground that was waiting for us if we grumbled. Our role was to follow. Period. 

I'm pretty sure he got this teaching from Jim McCotter and leaders in Ames like Jim.

And then the repercussions of this teaching: tell people to leave the church who have concerns about some stuff.  Like me.

This teaching gives him the authority to do something like that.  Control.  Who is in and who is out. Who is in the inner circle. (Non "grumblers" and people who can parrot whatever they teach and say. It gives them the authority (they think) to tell people what small group they belong in, and whether they are mature enough to marry, and whether they should stop having children, and whether they should dress differently, and whether they should get a hair cut, and whether they should move in with other sisters from the church, and whether they should or should not go to a college that does not have a GC church, and on and on and on.  And I feel SO sorry for young people who get caught up in this. 
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Linda
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« Reply #117 on: March 30, 2018, 05:43:22 pm »

Quote from: Rick Whitney, Faithwalkers 2004
You might say to yourself, "Look, I'm loyal to my church," but have I told my leaders, my partners, my friends, my brothers, my sisters, "I will be with you to the end."

God wants us to be loyal forever, for the long haul, for the rest of our life, WITH OUR CHURCH.

Find the people of God that you are convinced God wants you to be with and stay and die with them forever.

I remember I was a young Christian. I remember why when someone left our assemblies, our families, our church. And someone will and someone has and someone may...God forbid, here. Well, when people have left, they've said things, and I remember Jim turning to me and he said, "Rick, you don't understand. Obviously you don't understand, Rick." "Understand what? I'm tired of people throwing pot shots at us." He said, "Rick, we're doing something incredibly noble and its of God and we're building families for our Savior. We're doing something unique. it should be painful, God forbid it is not painful when ones leave."

The single biggest decision you will make as a Christian that will determine your success as a believer is whether you will commit to your brothers and sisters for life.

Rick Whitney sits on the national board and was on the board when he taught this at Faithwalkers, a national convention. Clearly, they believe in and teach commitment for life. TO THE LOCAL CHURCH.
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Heidi
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« Reply #118 on: March 30, 2018, 07:11:49 pm »

And, why did Jim McCotter leave?HuhHuh?

Just to clarify-
Jim McCotter said this to Rick Whitney, and Rick Whitney shared this at Faithwalkers in 2004. 
McCotter left in 1986-87.  There are some big Gaps here, and some very, very wrong teachings.

You are wrong Rick Whitney!!!
My success as a believer is in my obedience to Jesus.

Heidi van Dyck Anfinson
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #119 on: March 30, 2018, 07:23:19 pm »

The leaders are in a very awkward position when they ask someone to leave, or when people they valued leave.

Because of their hyper-commitment teaching, how can you level that with asking someone to leave, when you have just told them that the best thing in the world for them is to stay? So it always comes down to: there is something wrong with the people who leave.  It's them.

Thus the shunning.  These are people who are just not the  best to hang around with.  (But we were once their bride?)

They are stuck in a Pickle Jar with this, with the lid on. And then they wonder why people want to hash things out on a forum.

Because it was crazy, that's why. On so many levels.
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