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Author Topic: Pretense: The Church as Student Organization  (Read 49640 times)
ANobody
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« on: March 24, 2009, 02:30:13 pm »

In another thread, which is giving advice to a mother whose son is suffering academically so that he may dedicate more time to serving in GC, it was noted that GC has a long history of deception.  In the past, in some university towns, the entire GC church pretended to be a student organization so as to gain access to the university resources (buildings, meeting rooms, utilities, etc.).  This is not to say that some of the church members were not students, but the ENTIRE church would deceptively pretend it was a student organization so that the church could literally have services on campus. 

One such example was Trinity Bible Fellowship (the name of the GCI church) in West Lafayette during the 1970's-1980's.  The entire church (which only ever had 2 to 6 active Purude students at any given time) claimed to be the student organization called Harvest House Foundation.  The senior elder of Trinity named both the church and the student organization, even before there were any students attending.  His stated strategy was to recruit some students so that he could locate the church in the Student Union for Sunday services.  The senior elder was the defacto ruling head of both Trinity and Harvest House.

Once students were recruited into Trinity, they were made the student officers of Harvest House, reporting to the senior elder, and became the instruments by which the church was able to begin meeting on compus for Sunday services, Bible studies, etc.  But at no time did the church (Trinity Bible Fellowship) ever think the student organization (Harvest House Foundation) was independent.  Virtually all the members of Trinity thought they were also members of Harvest House.  Sound too outrageous to be true?

Attached are the actual photocopies of the student organization brochure used on the Purdue campus.  Notice that the "student officers" are not listed as contacts, but rather the two Trinity church elders are: E. Ray Moore and Ken Wooten.  They were not even students!  Further notice that the entire church (Trinity) is pictured in the group photograph, and only one student is shown in the small group photograph.  This was really a brochure for the church, NOT for the student organization, regardless of what the brochure states. 

GCI is a denomination with a colorful history of documentable deception.  Very sad.

Note: I do not know how to upload an image for insertion, so I have attached them--just click on the little thumbnail to make it a full sized readable image.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 02:45:37 pm by ANobody » Logged
randomous
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 02:49:17 pm »

Your premise is interesting, but it shows you don't understand the university system for student groups.  This is in no way a GC issue.  You have in your mind a definition of a student group, but it is not the same one universities use.

Most universities require that a student group have a minimum of anywhere from 2 to 8 members.  Beyond that, they literally don't care who else is a part of it.  In fact, in the recent case at UF, the university clause requires groups to provide associate memberships to any non-student, such that they must be allowed to come.  In other words, they not only allow non-students to come, they insist on it.

Where does the idea come from that student groups be comprised of only students, or even mostly students?  It doesn't come from the universities, so that leaves your personal mind and preference.  The ironic part is that a very small portionof university funding is provided by students - the rest is by taxpayers.  Universities recognize this.

Furthermore, what you've talked about here and in the other group is concern over who makes the group decisions.  Allow me to list groups that have paid staff that lead the student group:  Intervarsity, Chi Alpha, Campus Crusade, FCA, Navigators, Hillel, Islam on Campus, Ba'Hai, Unitarian Universalist, Wesley Foundation, etc, etc.  Shall I go on?

What you probably don't realize is that universities provide a very specific recognition of these types of groups.  they have a campus ministers' association of some sort.  What these groups do is provide for meetings of all the paid campus ministers who are non-students, from all religions.  They even give official university id cards taht look like student id cards but say 'campus minister".  Universities understand, accept, and embrace the way religious groups work (until they become politically incorrect).
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anonymoustoday
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 03:04:38 pm »

Hey, ANobody, chuckling out loud over here.  Very good!  That's exactly what GCx did and still does.

Hey, Randomous, not chuckling at you, buddy.  Just pity for you.  First you open your post by belittling the other guy, then you use examples that prove yourself wrong.  What do all your examples have in common (e.g. Intervarsity, Chi Alpha, Campus Crusade, FCA, Navigators, Hillel, Islam on Campus, Ba'Hai, Unitarian Universalist, Wesley Foundation)?  They all telll you straight up that they are branches of another outside organization.  They actually tell you that they are sponsored by Campus Crusade or FCA. 

How is that different than what GC did?  GC hid behind the "student organization" name and did not even hint that they were associated with GC or an off-campus church.  You sure would have had to dig to find out that Harvest House Foundation was really Trinity Bible Fellowship and therefore connected to GCI.

I am sorry for you that you cannot see the difference between deception and being upfront honest.
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Linda
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 04:21:07 pm »

Quote from: randomous
Where does the idea come from that student groups be comprised of only students, or even mostly students?
I have read the rules for the U of FL student organizations. They require that the officers in the organization be full time students. I could find nothing about the qualifications of the people attending the meetings (didn't look that hard though). What the rules state is that those leading the group must be full time, in person (not correspondence classes) students. Period.

What that tells me is that GCL is allowed to meet on the campus for their stated purpose, so long as the organization is governed (plans, money decisions) by full time students selected according to the rules set forth in the bylaws (which are required by the U of FL for all student organizations) of said organization. If outside people are making decisions for the student group and not the officers of the student group, then they are misrepresenting the group. This is not a student group, this is a church misrepresenting themselves as a student group. It's called lying.

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ANobody
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 04:58:00 pm »

Nice summary statements!!!!

Quote from: EverAStudent
Linda, the entire discussion, the very fact it was conducted at all, illustrates the problem GC is having with ethics.  They strain at the gnats of technicalities to squeeze their practices into the "it's legal" parameters while ignoring the fact that most everyone else sees their practices as unethical.  Technically unethical, morally unethical, and generally unethical.

Jesus calls us to be innocent as doves in our standing in the world.  He also calls us to be wise in this world of snakes, but He does not call on us to act deceitfully as if we too were snakes.  When Paul said he would do anything to win the world to Christ, he did not mean he would do any sin or tell any lie to make that happen, rather, he would do anything and everything that was holy so as to win the unsaved.  I am not sure that GC leadership interprets Paul that way.

Why did the West Lafayette GC church disguise the entire church as if it were a student organization?  Why does the present Gator church not know if it is a student organization or a church?  Why?  Is it really that those who comprise the congregation cannot discern the difference between a student organization and a church?  Rather doubtful since we are told to gather together into churches and not into student organizations.  No, these churches hesitate to admit in public that they are churches because they are hiding something from someone.  What are they hiding, and who are they hiding it from?

Quote from: anonymoustoday
Some interesting items to take special note of:

EAS asked, "These [GC] churches hesitate to admit in public that they are churches because they are hiding something from someone.  What are they hiding, and who are they hiding it from?" 
Amusingly, Randomous really answered that question, "The main reason each one [the GC church which is the GC student organization] has a different name is the national name [GCAC] just sucks, linguistically.  It's long, hard to say, and not very memorable.  if you'll look at most churches with conventional names, their college groups are very rarely 'First Baptist College Students' or anything like that.   It's natural."

Linda quoted GC's own website on Gator: "Gator Christian Life is a college church run by college students. No matter what you are interested in or gifted at doing, there is a ministry opportunity for you. If you see one of the following opportunities that you are interested in, get in touch with the contact person."
Randomous argued against GCAC's own website when he said, "Again, the student group is not a church.  They are different."

Well, of course the truth is that Gator is a GCAC church, controlled and run by men assigned to be its "oversight," men who are called elders who are to be obeyed by students and community folks alike.  It is only a "student organization" in the legal sense so it can meet on campus.  And yes, as Randomous admitted, it does intentionally hide its affiliation with GCAC because GCAC's name "just sucks." 

A good name is to be more desired than great wealth, Favor is better than silver and gold. (Proverbs 22:1)


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Huldah
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 08:07:44 pm »

During my time with Solid Rock, there was no visible distinction between the student organization and the church itself. It wasn't that there was a church that also sponsored a campus group, with some overlap in membership. Rather, the church members were the members of the student group, and vice versa. And, as it happens, only a minority of the group were actually students. It never occured to me that there were legally two different entities, or that any arrangements may have been made to circumvent university rules. What did occur to me, and to a few other friends who eventually left the church, was the irony of presenting themselves as a student organization, while simultaneously undermining the few members who chose to remain in school. How many other student organizations treat higher education as either a waste of time or a downright hindrance?
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ANobody
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 08:36:21 am »

In my old church papers I have some stuff distributed by E. Ray Moore and Ken Wooten, the elders of the West Lafayette (Purdue University) GCI church in the mid 1970's-1980's.  One such document is the elders' guidelines to the congregation for socializing. 

It described how church social events were to be attended and used to promote church growth.  At the end of this 4 page document it reminds everyone that Trinity is the church and Harvest House is the student organization, and it cautions the congregation that when they invite community people to a church event to call it a Trinity Bible Fellowship social event.  When they invite students to the exact same event, to call it a Harvest House Foundation social event. 

An entire church masquerading as a student organization?  How is this not deceptive?  Was West Lafayette alone in its misdirection?  According to Huldah, Solid Rock did the same thing.  And from what I have read so far, Florida is still doing the same. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 08:38:15 am by ANobody » Logged
theresearchpersona
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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 02:56:21 pm »

Unlike Randomous, apparently the NAE (at least a few years back) did consider representing onself as a Church vs. a Denomination vs. an Organization vs. a Movement, whatever, to be important enough that without applying as what it is (a denomination), GC would be disallowed from membership, http://www.rickross.com/reference/mccotter/mccotter33.html,

Quote
Following that meeting, NAE was poised to drop the church from its rolls on a technicality - that it misrepresented itself as an "organization" rather than a "church" in its original application to NAE, Melvin said.

He believes GCI's application error was an honest mistake, Melvin added. "They believed they were doing it the right way."

The church would be welcome to reapply for membership in NAE, but he doubts it will, Melvin said. "They are aware that with the controversy that surrounds the group at this moment, that would not be wise," he said. "If they applied to us as a denomination, we would start the process from square one...We'd get into a lot of things we did not get into previously."

I only wish they could read Randomous' writing now, the guy saying it doesn't matter, it's all technicalities, formalities, "everyone else [supposedly] does it", etc.. : (
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puff of purple smoke
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2009, 03:19:15 pm »

That was the old NAE. The new one doesn't care.
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 03:41:01 am »

That was the old NAE. The new one doesn't care.

I think I figure that already: the new NAE didn't blink when members wrote to warn that Haggard was part of the NAR, nor when his temporary replacement, they were warned, turned-out to be a big advocate for various New Age Teachers/books/etc.. It's just astounding, nuts, etc.. I almost fell over in astonishment from a recent online "Christian" mag that posted a "Christian" teacher's diatribe against people who'd dare "fence off the evangelical green" because (1) he's a false teacher himself likely complaining about being exposed for it, (2) because "evangelical" means "gospel Christian" (ahem, "narrow way...", ahem), (3) is a historical term with meaning contrary to its modern use (the only reason Christians daren't give it up is because it's so closely related to the Greek for gospel, so is like "Christian": we get to define the terms involved biblically and, truly, tell people when they are/not in/out of that fence, and (4) the people the guy was railing at aren't those arguing arrogantly for some small fenced-off green, but are a lot of those very willing to engage in argumentation from Scripture till truth prevails with those who are within the "evangelical" (at least that of a little more historical rather than modern flavor) camp so long as they are willing to submit, in the end, to Scripture.

Enough rant, time for some real study... : )
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namaste
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2009, 12:16:45 pm »

I haven't posted in forever, and haven't even looked at this message board in quite awhile (probably more than a year).  But I had quite a reaction when I saw the reply randomous offered to the original post.  I've pondered what might make an appropriate and constructive response for a few minutes, but have only this to say:

Randomous, at the very least, pretty much everything you post is evidentiary of a profoundly cloistered mind.  And that's sad.  It occurs to me that you're probably at least a smidge brighter than the average bulb, and yet you spend countless hours bickering over wikipedia articles and constructing offensively fallacious arguments in response to legitimate queries about GCx's tactics (see: original post in this topic).  Reading your drivel offers about the level of entertainment value that I derive from watching old tapes of Bill Clinton trying desperately to parse the meaning of the word 'is'.  And that's saying something.

Yesterday morning in court I watched a defense attorney ludicrously argue that her client was not guilty of "communicating a threat."  I'll spare you the misery of subjecting you to the blow by blow, but suffice to say, this was a loser of an argument.  The really disappointing part of it all was that this defense attorney didn't even try to sell it.  It was painful to watch.

My point is, you craft some of the most absurd, poorly reasoned, and ridiculous arguments I've ever read.  But you present them with such conviction!  I'm telling you, randomous, with the appropriate schooling and the right handlers (not to mention a crash course in social skills), you could claw your way up to the middle of the pack in the public defender's office.

Think about it.
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DrSam
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2009, 08:38:31 pm »

Quote from: randomous
Where does the idea come from that student groups be comprised of only students, or even mostly students?
I have read the rules for the U of FL student organizations. They require that the officers in the organization be full time students. I could find nothing about the qualifications of the people attending the meetings (didn't look that hard though). What the rules state is that those leading the group must be full time, in person (not correspondence classes) students. Period.

What that tells me is that GCL is allowed to meet on the campus for their stated purpose, so long as the organization is governed (plans, money decisions) by full time students selected according to the rules set forth in the bylaws (which are required by the U of FL for all student organizations) of said organization. If outside people are making decisions for the student group and not the officers of the student group, then they are misrepresenting the group. This is not a student group, this is a church misrepresenting themselves as a student group. It's called lying.

Linda,

If this is such a BIG concern with you why don't you call Mark Trujillo at GCL? His number is: 352-377-5177

If that does not satisfy you then ask for Matt Gordon's phone. Go straight to the "horses mouth" instead of speculating.  Wink

Also, it is interesting that Ray Moore was referred to concerning the former church in West Lafayette, IN. Ray, who was instrumental in formulating those policies about student organization and the church joined Mike Royal/Paul Martin & Co. Also, that church, though identifying itself with GC never was truly a GC church since they never came out of Ames or Columbus. They were pretty much on their own and acted totally apart from any of the other churches. GC gets a bad rap from these guys when realistically, they did not participate hardly in much of GC. I know this first hand and I knew Ray quite well at the time. We went back to Grace Sem. when we were together in Bethany Chapel. Bethany was never part of GC either. Just want to straighten this out.

« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 08:46:17 pm by DrSam » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2009, 11:35:56 pm »

Sam, This is kind of an old thread, but the proper people to contact would be the University of Florida, not GCL. The question to ask them would be, "Is it okay that a group that is classified as a student group is really a church meeting regularly in one of your buildings?"

The reality is, of course, that there are lots of Christian people and groups doing lots of questionable things. I'm not here to police the world. This only came up because it points to a pattern in GC that goes back to the early days of Ames.

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DrSam
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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2009, 05:02:07 am »

Sam, This is kind of an old thread, but the proper people to contact would be the University of Florida, not GCL. The question to ask them would be, "Is it okay that a group that is classified as a student group is really a church meeting regularly in one of your buildings?"

The reality is, of course, that there are lots of Christian people and groups doing lots of questionable things. I'm not here to police the world. This only came up because it points to a pattern in GC that goes back to the early days of Ames.


Linda, it may be an old thread and an old soapbox message being debated but the reality is that the PRESENT accusation is that GCL (Matt Gordon and his leadership) are deceivers. You might find out that they are in plain sight and it is all open and disclosed. Maybe not but it is all on their web site in terms of what they do and is implied. They also won a case against the U of F for being taken off campus. I say if the University knows what they do and what other groups (Crusade, etc.) do and they are Okay with it then the issue here does not hold water and perhaps some retractions should be made. It is being assumed that what happened in the past still is going on, especially with Matt Gordon and GCL. I think there needs to be integrity on both sides. Just my two cents. I still say call Matt Gordon and get it straight from the guy as well as U of F.
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Linda
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2009, 06:25:04 am »

Quote from: Sam
They also won a case against the U of F for being taken off campus.
This is irrelevant and misleading. The lawsuit was about discrimination based on religion. The fact that they won means only that they are saying their membership is for Christians.

[quote-GCL attorney]"And now the university has a new policy that says a student organization whose primary purpose is religious will not be denied registration as a registered student organization on the ground that it limits its membership or leadership positions to students who share the religious beliefs of the organization," he contends.[/quote]

Also, Sam, I believe this thread is a continuation of another thread where a mother posted her concerns about her son who was involved with GCL. She subsequently removed her posts and disappeared, so I don't know if she was "for real" or not. Anyway, at some point, Randomous mentioned that the church meets on campus on Sunday mornings. The building is reserved by the students as a meeting for their organization, but it is actually the meeting for the church. This is not made clear and at one point the web page says GCL is a church run by students.

Again, if we go to the Bill Clinton deposition, I suppose we could redefine the word "run" and say it meant that students play in the worship band and give the announcements, but the pastors make all the decisions. I believe that is what Randomous told us.

Anyway, Sam, I took quite a bit of time and researched the GCL web page, the U of FL student web page. I compared it to other student organizations on campus at the U of FL and found GCL to be misrepresenting who they were.

Unless something new comes to light, I'm done with this topic.
If I were going to pursue it, I would call the U of FL and ask them about their rules. Not GCL. But, as I mentioned I'm not the sect police. You can find that other post and read what I wrote if you want to know what I think.
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theresearchpersona
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2009, 07:58:21 am »

Sam, This is kind of an old thread, but the proper people to contact would be the University of Florida, not GCL. The question to ask them would be, "Is it okay that a group that is classified as a student group is really a church meeting regularly in one of your buildings?"

The reality is, of course, that there are lots of Christian people and groups doing lots of questionable things. I'm not here to police the world. This only came up because it points to a pattern in GC that goes back to the early days of Ames.


Linda, it may be an old thread and an old soapbox message being debated but the reality is that the PRESENT accusation is that GCL (Matt Gordon and his leadership) are deceivers. You might find out that they are in plain sight and it is all open and disclosed. Maybe not but it is all on their web site in terms of what they do and is implied. They also won a case against the U of F for being taken off campus. I say if the University knows what they do and what other groups (Crusade, etc.) do and they are Okay with it then the issue here does not hold water and perhaps some retractions should be made. It is being assumed that what happened in the past still is going on, especially with Matt Gordon and GCL. I think there needs to be integrity on both sides. Just my two cents. I still say call Matt Gordon and get it straight from the guy as well as U of F.


Let's not do as Scripture commands against, subjecting the judgment of the Church to the world's judges (as in this matter of saying "even so and so judge ruled...").  Those duly criticized ought, for their own benefit, and out genuine love, accept it as reasonable and due when it is, rather than labelling it unreasonable, unfair, pleading, or persecution. Before God we should be consistent and honest irregardless if the world even did just go "wink wink" for toying with words, and hiding behind little subtleties of argumentation, and let's not present ourselves as being other than a Church just to appeal to so-called "seekers", which I would like to provide an example of what I mean for GC* here: who is the parable of the pearl of great price about, a seeker of salvation? No, read the context, it's about Jesus Christ, despite the popular (i.e. the usually heard) interpretations of this disconnected from the context; all the parables it is in the context of, from the sower, to the finder of the treasure who sells all he has to buy the field (same situation as the pearl) are about Jesus Christ, not mere men (Jesus is not just a mere man, but also the Majesty, the Deity in full!).

Anyway, we should not hide behind little "winked at" possibly-acceptable wiggling with words (legalism in that form, also when complex arguments are made to dodge accountability and obedience), but irregardless of how the world reacts, serve God, not men, and do right.
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2009, 09:28:52 am »

Quote from: Great Commission Ministries web page
Matt helps lead Gator Christian Life, a campus church that is passionate about bringing students to Jesus Christ and preparing them for a lifetime of service.

Quote from: UofFL Student Organization Handbook
The following are minimum eligibility requirements for any student to hold a leadership position in an officially registered student organization at the University of Florida. Student organizations are encouraged to consider higher requirements if appropriate for their specific group. In order to hold an elected or appointed office in a student organization, a student must:

   1. Be enrolled in a degree-seeking program at the University as an undergraduate, graduate, professional, or postgraduate student. Postgraduate student shall include enrollment as a post-baccalaureate student
   2. Meet requirements for full-time registration and academic standing described below:
         1. Undergraduate students must be registered for twelve (12) credits in the Fall and Spring semesters, have a minimum 2.5 cumulative academic average and cannot have an academic warning or be on academic probation
         2. Graduate and professional students must meet the requirements for full-time status for the graduate or professional program in which they are enrolled, or be registered for eight (Cool credits if appointed to a half-time graduate assistantship, or nine (9) credits if appointed to a one-third time graduate assistantship. Graduate and professional students must also have a minimum of 3.0 cumulative academic average, or at least the minimum grade point average required to remain in good standing with the graduate or professional program in which they are enrolled, and otherwise be in good academic standing
         3. Postgraduate students, including post-baccalaureate students, must be enrolled for at least twelve (12) credits. Postgraduate students may not hold an office in a student organization for more than one semester while in postgraduate status.
Quote from: Later the Handbook says
Students not meeting the eligibility requirements as outlined in this policy will be required to relinquish their office. If a student no longer meets the eligibility requirements, he or she must notify the faculty/staff advisor and the highest ranking officer in the organization other than the student, in writing of the studentís ineligibility at the time he or she becomes ineligible.
Assuming Matt Gordon is a full time student, enrolled in a degree seeking program, I have no problem with him being a leader at GCL. If he isn't a student and he is a leader and he wants to play by the rules, he needs to pull himself out of leadership in GCL.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 09:32:54 am by Linda » Logged

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DrSam
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2009, 10:49:55 am »

Quote from: Great Commission Ministries web page
Matt helps lead Gator Christian Life, a campus church that is passionate about bringing students to Jesus Christ and preparing them for a lifetime of service.

Quote from: UofFL Student Organization Handbook
The following are minimum eligibility requirements for any student to hold a leadership position in an officially registered student organization at the University of Florida. Student organizations are encouraged to consider higher requirements if appropriate for their specific group. In order to hold an elected or appointed office in a student organization, a student must:

   1. Be enrolled in a degree-seeking program at the University as an undergraduate, graduate, professional, or postgraduate student. Postgraduate student shall include enrollment as a post-baccalaureate student
   2. Meet requirements for full-time registration and academic standing described below:
         1. Undergraduate students must be registered for twelve (12) credits in the Fall and Spring semesters, have a minimum 2.5 cumulative academic average and cannot have an academic warning or be on academic probation
         2. Graduate and professional students must meet the requirements for full-time status for the graduate or professional program in which they are enrolled, or be registered for eight (Cool credits if appointed to a half-time graduate assistantship, or nine (9) credits if appointed to a one-third time graduate assistantship. Graduate and professional students must also have a minimum of 3.0 cumulative academic average, or at least the minimum grade point average required to remain in good standing with the graduate or professional program in which they are enrolled, and otherwise be in good academic standing
         3. Postgraduate students, including post-baccalaureate students, must be enrolled for at least twelve (12) credits. Postgraduate students may not hold an office in a student organization for more than one semester while in postgraduate status.
Quote from: Later the Handbook says
Students not meeting the eligibility requirements as outlined in this policy will be required to relinquish their office. If a student no longer meets the eligibility requirements, he or she must notify the faculty/staff advisor and the highest ranking officer in the organization other than the student, in writing of the studentís ineligibility at the time he or she becomes ineligible.
Assuming Matt Gordon is a full time student, enrolled in a degree seeking program, I have no problem with him being a leader at GCL. If he isn't a student and he is a leader and he wants to play by the rules, he needs to pull himself out of leadership in GCL.

At their web site they fully disclose the following:

"Great Commission Ministries Staff working on the University of Florida campus partner with Gator Christian Life officers and leaders to accomplish this mission and vision. Go to the GCM's staff profile page to read more about these staff." Retrieved from http://beta.gatorchristianlife.com/AboutGCL/WhoWeAre/tabid/182/Default.aspx

Also on the same page you find:

About GCL
The GCL Vision

We believe true joy comes as we obey God and work in harmony with Godís people, His Church. To this end, our passion is to bring students to an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ, help them develop their dream for serving Him wholeheartedly, and provide training within Gator Christian Life to prepare students to be the best equipped for a lifetime of service as a committed member of a local church. By Godís grace we hope to see many of our graduates unite in church planting teams, become foreign & domestic missionaries, effectively minister in the marketplace, and be trained as pastors and leaders for the next generation of Christ followers.

This passion motivates us to:

    *
      be a church family where loving relationships are developed and needs are met
    *
      create and maintain an atmosphere of continual spiritual growth
    *
      help students recognize, appreciate and utilize their God-given gifts
    *
      live out a lifestyle of evangelism
    *
      worship the Lord in a manner that draws seekers and believers into a closer encounter with God
    *
      pursue friendships with international students and help prepare those who are interested in overseas missions
    *
      pursue the goal of including over 1% of UF in our church family (home groups) while impacting the entire campus for Christ
    *
      develop leaders among students, staff, deacons and elders to effectively equip the church in Gainesville and effectively multiply their leadership
    *
      send out a team every three years to plant other churches (including campus and community churches across the S.E., and internationally)

In pursuit of this vision, we are committed to working as an integral part of Great Commission Churches and in conjuction with the various Christian churches and organizations focused on the UF campus.
Our Beliefs

Gator Christian Life is affiliated with Great Commission Churches and shares the same statement of faith.
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The university administrators are aware of this web site and these statements and apparently have not felt they violate the university policies.

I still encourage you to call Matt Gordon. If he is deceptive you will know it. Otherwise, with all due respect you are still not going to the ultimate primary source responsible. How would you feel if people judge you and talk about you but never talk TO YOU? Personally, I consider that sloppy research and lacks some integrity. Journalists typically do that kind of sloppy homework when they just want to crucify their object. Regardless if you have voluntarily "shut" this discussion down because of inconvenience give him a call if you really mean to get to the truth and be balanced. Otherwise it looks like a witch hunt.   Wink

« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:52:31 am by DrSam » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2009, 11:15:08 am »

Again, I repeat my comment. Assuming Matt Gordon is a full time student, enrolled in a degree seeking program, I have no problem with him being a leader at GCL. If he isn't a student and he is a leader and he wants to play by the rules, he needs to pull himself out of leadership in GCL.

I will assume Matt is a full time student, enrolled in a degree seeking program and leave it at that.

Beyond that, Sam, and later when I have more time I will post more on this topic, but let me state it clearly for all to read.

The reason I post on this forum, gcmwarning, is to warn parents and students about the teaching of GC churches that we found false and damaging to Christian individuals and families. I am not interested in having a debate with GC people. I gave them a lot of my time over several years trying to understand what they taught and, frankly, was misled.

Not only that, personally and publicly, GC leaders have said things about my husband and me that were quite judgmental and harmful--including sending letters to our grown children telling them we were unkind, misleading, and wrong. They did not come to us first so I don't understand the one sided defense. GC leaders can say whatever they want. Non-leaders are vilified for pointing out the flaws in their teaching.

Also, pastors and other public leaders are held to a different standard. For example, I don't have to write President Obama to tell him that I think it's wrong to abort babies. He is a public figure and his comments about policy are up for public debate. Likewise, I don't have to write Joel Osteen to tell him that I think he preaches a false prosperity Gospel. It is my Christian duty to measure his words by the Word of God and to warn others I know who might be led astray by the false nature of his teaching.

I can't, however, accuse Obama or Osteen of specific misdoings without going to them first. Adultery. Theft. That type of thing. Public teaching is different than private sin.

Our church tried to destroy our family. They failed. I'm here to sound the warning.



« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 11:26:20 am by Linda » Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
theresearchpersona
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2009, 11:20:36 am »

Sam, originally this stuff had the gaff of a guy claiming GCL was not a Church, so for that reason he claimed they were legit according to University rules (if they're read as written); Linda pointed-out their very own website says they are area Church, and a contradiction where the rules stipulate that University students run student orgs (which that guy said they were and not a Church), the students, not GC*'s elders; those, I think, are the things that form "the meat of the beef" here, the double-talk. If it was said "oh, well we are being contradictory about these things, we need to go back, discuss it, and not say we're not", Linda might have just gone, "well that's mighty swell" or "that's great" with a Cheesy. So might have I. That didn't happen. Cry

 
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