Doctrinal Issues of Jim McCotter... (Only Doctrine Please)

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[PietWowo]

So, if you bring up a doctrine, like: Unity trumps truth.... Then you're stating this as an absolute law as far as Jim McCotter was concerned. So, I challenged it with the example of islam... Then you started specifying a bunch of things and in a sense nullifying your statement... Well, Vince is going to ask Jim McCotter. I'm sure that he would never agree with a blanket statement like: "Unity trumps truth."  But we'll see what he said.

This is why I hesitated to even post in this thread. My words have been twisted. I don't know if it's a language barrier thing (although your English is excellent) or whether your mind just works very differently from mine, or maybe even whether you're baiting me on purpose... I just don't know. I just had a gut feeling that whatever I said would be misrepresented, and I was right.

I have nothing further to say on this as I believe my efforts would be wasted.

No, I'm not trying to bait you at all. I'm trying to focus the discussion on doctrine as is traditionally defined and I keep getting examples, which relate to practice. You made a blanket statement, that I don't believe Jim has said without some context. No matter what church or Christian group, you will associate yourself with, you will find one or a few things you disagree with. Even if you got married, you will sooner or later find something you will disagree with with your spouse....

So, in minor doctrines, we need to pursue unity over minor doctrines... But I have not heard any DOCTRINE.... (please, look up the definition if that confuses you what that means) outside of the Dominion doctrine that Lostcreature2 brought up... I keep hearing examples of practice. This is a focused thread... Not a general thread... If I wanted to make it general, I would have said: "Let's discuss any problem you might have with Jim McCotter. I find that to be useless, because it goes all over the place.

Now, maybe as some have suggested here they don't have a problem with Jim's doctrine, but just with his lifestyle. Then state that!!! That wouldn't mean at all that you are endorsing Jim McCotter. Lifestyle and practice are very very important, but not the topic of discussion here on this thread....

[PietWowo]

Huldah and everyone else on this thread who hate a brother in the Lord, this is where you really are missing it.  You think I don't have an issue with people who represent Jesus, and then show clearly that they hate a brother in Christ and have ZERO desire to iron things out?  It's God's reputation I'm jealous for.  Satan rejoices when believers trash other believers' character, the way you are doing with Jim.  It IS very sad to me because you are giving unbelievers the perfect excuse for NEVER believing.  You don't seem to realize what God went through for the opportunity to be reconciled with you when you refuse to be reconciled with Jim, who, no matter what, cannot even remotely approach the offense that we were to God, and yet He sought to reconcile and offered forgiveness in advance.  Don't you see how UN-God like you are when you refuse to confront the person you've discredited?  PLEASE seek for peace, as Paul commanded.  It is our responsibility as Jesus followers to be at peace with each other, and Jim is waiting to hear from ANYONE who has a problem with anything they think he has done, or witnessed things he has done in his past.  Why not love Jim, and everyone else?  Isn't that what we are  called to do?  Imagine if EVERYONE on here found out that you worked things out with Jim?  Imagine if you could tell everyone here that Jim is a precious possession of God, and is righteous and justified by the blood of Jesus, just like YOU are?  Wouldn't that be a HUGE witness?

Vince I agree with this. I think there are a lot of issues where people have been hurt and so they react as hurt people.... Just this thread, it's hard to imagine that they can't focus on one aspect of Jim McCotter.... his doctrine.... If Jim McCotter would be coming on here. He would be attacked from every angle on who knows what. It would be like going into a boxing ring while getting attacked by 20 boxers.... It would not be an honest discussion and it wouldn't lead to peace.... However I'm not sure that many here want peace with Jim.... Even people, who have never met Jim McCotter are offended by him, because they are offended by some of his disciples. And a disciple is supposed to be like his teacher. (Luke 6:40). So, it's similar to many Jewish people, who will dislike Christians, because they have been persecuted by what they perceived as Christians, like the inquisition, some parts of the crusades, and even in their mind the holocaust. Of course pretty much all things that were done by a certain church that has a pope.

Again, I'm not sure if people want peace. They would want to systematically want to reason through all of their grievances. But this thread has shown very clearly that they don't want to deal with it. They just want to gripe and declare Jim guilty of everything. Now, it might be good for Jim to create some sort of website, where he could take the accusations one by one and share his side on this. Because on those issues all that there is out there is the negative side.

But personally I appreciate Jim very much. I've learned a lot from him. I don't agree with him 100%, but I'm not sure that I agree with anyone totally 100%. But I feel totally at peace with him... I have been with GCx for a very, very long time. I've gotten hurt too... Of course I have. Whatever church I would have been with, I would have gotten hurt. But I tend to look at everything I have learned and be thankful for it. If I disagree with someone, it's best to just not keep bearing a grudge. I also found that people, who are confident in what they believe don't get upset when others disagree with them.

[PietWowo]

Pointing out flawed teaching and practice is not hate. It is discernment.

Mischaracterizing the statements of people you disagree with and calling them liars, haters, and Satan pleasers is a very bad thing. It's ad hominem at best. People see through it, Vince.

Registering on this forum and agreeing to the rules (no spamming, respecting people who choose to post anonymously, failing to respect the concept that this forum is for people to discuss their experiences with bad teaching and practice in GCx churches, etc.) and then breaking the rules seems to be the GCC way.

I don't need to contact Joel Osteen to tell him his theology is flawed before I tell people what is wrong with it. I don't know him. He is a public figure. His teaching is public.

Inasmuch as Jim McCotter is a public figure and his teaching is public, it is fair game for discussion. End of story. It's not an issue of "being at peace with a brother". It's an issue of warning fellow believers about bad teaching.

Actually I agree with much of this. Jim McCotter is a public figure. His teachings are public. So, we can discuss them.

Can you please show me where on this forum, it says that we can only discuss bad experiences on this forum.... I actually just read the rules a few days ago. To me it said the opposite. Or am I not understanding you correctly. I am respecting people on this forum. And by the way, so is Vince... I've not heard him say anything nasty about this forum... If you claim somebody is not telling the truth, that doesn't mean you call them a liar. People at times don't tell the truth, because they are just sincerely wrong... A liar is someone, who knowing that something is false will state that. And I have not called anyone a liar on this forum, nor have I tried to get people to reveal who they are anonymously.

At the same, when you post something anonymously, be prepared to receive pushback... I don't know what people's personal situations are... Maybe they are suffering a lot in some area of their lives... Maybe health, maybe family situations, who knows. But the idea with being anonymous, just is that it is just an exchange of ideas...

I have only asked on this thread that we can focus on one aspect of Jim McCotter and that is doctrine. Do you need me to define the term "doctrine?"

[PietWowo]

Pointing out flawed teaching and practice is not hate. It is discernment.

Mischaracterizing the statements of people you disagree with and calling them liars, haters, and Satan pleasers is a very bad thing. It's ad hominem at best. People see through it, Vince.

Registering on this forum and agreeing to the rules (no spamming, respecting people who choose to post anonymously, failing to respect the concept that this forum is for people to discuss their experiences with bad teaching and practice in GCx churches, etc.) and then breaking the rules seems to be the GCC way.

I don't need to contact Joel Osteen to tell him his theology is flawed before I tell people what is wrong with it. I don't know him. He is a public figure. His teaching is public.

Inasmuch as Jim McCotter is a public figure and his teaching is public, it is fair game for discussion. End of story. It's not an issue of "being at peace with a brother". It's an issue of warning fellow believers about bad teaching.

I've read enough of yours and others on here to know for CERTAIN that there is MUCH more going on than discussion of false teaching.  Why not just confront Jim and ask him about all these "doctrinal" disagreements?  For instance, I've read about people on here that insist Jim taught people should "BEAT" their children.  This is so unfair, sister.  I'm going to bring that up tomorrow as well, so you can hear his CLEAR view on raising children.  You are quoting a MEDIA source to prove your point?  Really?  I'm not saying YOU did that, but it's on here more than once.  I've met 4 of Jim's children, and their kids.  These are some VERY well balanced folks.  You have no reason to make these accusations.  Either way, I'm going through this site and making questions out of all of your accusations.  Let's see if any of them are true, and let's remember that slander and gossip are very damaging to the Kingdom.  Your site is available to the world, and you doing this tarnishes God's reputation.  Why don't you repent from this and just get it right with Jim once and for all... let's be an example of this!

Vince I don't think there is much doctrinal disagreement with Jim McCotter on this forum... outside of maybe Dominion theology. But I don't think people want to state that they are in agreement with Jim on doctrinal issues.... Because it would give Jim McCotter some credibility. So, the issue, including how or how not to spank are practice related. It is about how Jim McCotter would apply a Biblical principle. It's basically the same as what happened during the time of Christ. All of the Hebrews would agree with the Torah... However they had differences on how to apply It and what are the greater Commandments. For instance, all agreed that the Smah was the greatest Commandment. Hillel would teach that the second One would be to love your neighbour as yourself. (Luke 19:18) That would be more along the line of the Pharisees... (another group of people totally misunderstood). Shamai would teach that second Commandment is  to keep the Sabbath... But all of that is practice related... These are the same underlying thinking, just different issues.

But here we're talking about people, who are just really hurt by their GCx churches. Many of them don't even know who Jim McCotter is. They have never met him.... But somehow he has become the cause of all of the hurt...

[PietWowo]

Gossip by one believer about another hurts God's reputation.  Jim isn't affected by this even a little.  The only one who is harmed is God.

So Jim is tougher and more resilient than God?

Good grief, Vince, you've really outdone yourself this time.

Huldah, I think what he meant here is: that the only one, who is harmed is the cause of Christ. And of course, one can grieve the Holy Spirit, Who is God....

The ultimate solution is trying to make peace with Jim, if you personally really have something against him.... Matt. 18.... If a brother offends you, go and reconcile yourself. Many of you have never even heard Jim personally speak, nor have met him, talked with him, or know him. And you are just repeating accusations that you have read.... Trust me, I've met people, who weren't part of the GCx church until the Nineties and have told me how things were in the Eighties there. I found that really crazy.... I was there for all of the Eighties... I know Jim... I know what he's like.... Like I said, I don't agree with everything he said, but that's fine.... Let's go back to Doctrine on this thread.... Or outside of LostCreature2, start with doctrine on this thread....

[Huldah]

PWW, in case you don't recognize it, that was sarcasm. I've made repeated efforts to reason with Vince, to respond with civility, and to treat him with far more courtesy than he has shown to anyone here. He has rewarded me with nothing but bullying, manipulation, and insults. I've given up on him. I now answer a fool according to his folly.

[PietWowo]

I so appreciate Linda putting up the rules again. I think they are great rules. So, here is the name of this thread: "Doctrinal Issues of Jim McCotter... (Only Doctrine Please).

Let's go back to the topic, or post on another thread: This is about Doctrinal Issues.

4. Be mindful of the topic. A small deviation from the original topic is permissible, but if your post is going to radically alter the direction of a thread (known as "thread hijacking") simply make it into a brand new thread. In some cases we may split threads and move off topic posts to a more appropriate forum. Also be mindful of which forum would be most appropriate when posting a new thread.

Here is a definition that I got Googling: "It signifies the process of conceptualizing the primal—often experiential or intuitive—insights of the faith of a religious community in support of rationally understood belief."

So, answering a question on doctrine with an answer of practice, is similar to this conversation:

Question: "How does a computer work?"
Answer: "You can buy a good PC for under $1,000"

That doesn't answer the question.... Than if the person asking the question wants to go back to the original question, it would not make sense to tell the original questioner that they don't care about the price.... No, but it's off topic. So, when I ask about doctrine. Answer about doctrine, not about practice. If you want to talk about practice, start a new thread.... No one said that I don't care about practice, but that's not what I started this thread about.

Going back to the question:
Whar are Jim McCotter's False Doctrines.... (I have a degree in theology....I know what doctrine is).

Thus far one answer: "Dominion Theology."

Anything else, or can we conclude that outside of that, his doctrine is correct.... (Again that would not be a statement on his practice...) (I do realize they are related, but I want to narrow in on just this one aspect..)

[MidnightRider]

...
None of that is doctrine.... It's all practice.... Not that I'm saying that these things aren't very important, but I'm just saying that they are not dealing with doctrine. The closest this post comes to doctrine is the doctrine of sin... What did he teach that was unBiblical in doctrine? Did he teach that not everyone is a sinner.

Then doubting someone's eternal salvation could relate to doctrine, depending on the context.... I've seen a lot of Calvinists do this and they base it on the 5th point of the 5 points of Calvinism from Dordrecht in the 17th century. But I've not heard much from Jim as to what he believes on Calvinism.... Would you elaborate please?

PWW,

The GCx movement was very much against Calvinism. Nevertheless, they taught that a Christian could not lose his salvation.