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Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

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[theresearchpersona]

I'm hurting really bad lately.

[wastedyearsthere]

I'm sorry -- anything you care to talk about?

[Truth Lover]

I'm praying for you too.  Feel free to let us share your burden, if you want to.

[exshep]

You can always send a PM off forum if that feels safer.   We are here for you.

[Linda]

I'm sorry TRP.

There is so much sadness involved in leaving. Changed relationships, the feelings that go with being deceived and misled by friends, people who once cared for you shunning you or questioning your character and misunderstanding your motives.

It's a long road, but I'm thankful that besides the Lord there are other encouraging believers on it with me. I'm sorry you are having a hard time right now. You are not alone.

God bless you.

[AgathaL'Orange]

I second Linda!  You are not alone.  If you need someone, you can always, always PM someone.  Some of us have touched based off forum, and that helps.

We are not just a "virtual" support group.  We are real people who've been there (maybe not in your particular circumstances) and I speak for myself and I'm sure a few others when I say, we're here to provide real support .

Please, please use us!

[lone gone]

Hey, I don't know what you are sad about.... but you are in my prayers.

[askingquestionsaboutGCI]

praying for you......

[trthskr]

I would personally recommend reading "More Jesus, Less Religion" by Stephen Arterburn if you get a chance.   He wrote "toxic faith", but this one is more based on healing and where-do-I-go-from-here.  Its difficult because honestly I haven't found that anyone can understand how this feels unless they've gone through it.  It's ok to be sad.  A lot is lost, for me it was mostly the dissapointment of realizing that something I thought was so perfect was actually very bad and hurtful to me.  I'll be praying too.  

P.S. - I'm newly enlightened to the "real" gcm - freshly free, I would say.  Feel free to pm me as well.  Everyone on here has been really very helpful.

[theresearchpersona]

I posted this little thread a while back, and then sort-of dropped off to lick some wounds: was hurting a lot.

I was hurting about how screwed-up all this is, and how shiny GC makes it all look to young impressionable eyes, and how those around me were getting worse in things (doctrine, enslavement to false teachers, etc.), and how enamoured they were with it all rather than having their attention on the HEAD.

I'm still really troubled by all this, and still trying to learn what I need, and still having trouble, but not trouble like it's impossible, it's just hard at times to do it, to pick-up and read vs. sleep if I get depressed or whatever.

But I'm learning to cope, to pray more, and such. I want to be especially careful about handling scriptures now, and about interaction with people. These years I've been reading about discernment have started to become very useful to encourage Christians I meet to practice it (the word commands that we do) and even discuss things in order to hopefully warn people taken by error (not long ago I was in a place talking to a guy who's in-training in post-modern junk at a "Christian" college and having to report on a book which he was giving gloating praise, and I got to sit there point-by-point challenging him on certain sections that I'd read when he offered me the book to check it out; he wasn't digging all that, and was, I think, angry, but the young gal with him was not only listening intently, but taking it seriously, so that I hope she'll be on-guard and more careful, prayerful, and studious in the word: especially more than me).

There's other stuff which could be said, but I guess that's enough for now.

[lone gone]

This goes to show how moderation in everything is essential. Zeal feels good, but it also is capable of leading a person to take positions that later are determined to be mistaken. Then we have to retreat to an unknown place where we question everything we once held on to. It is a disturbing time and one I am well acquainted with.

God is patient, revealing His will in His good time.

 We want truth, and we want it now. We experience conflict, fighting against our desires when God has other things in mind.

I did learn this principle while I was in Ames..... some things go on the back-burner to continue simmering while other things come to the front burner to be dealt with actively.

[MidnightRider]

I was hurting about how screwed-up all this is, and how shiny GC makes it all look to young impressionable eyes, and how those around me were getting worse in things (doctrine, enslavement to false teachers, etc.), and how enamoured they were with it all rather than having their attention on the HEAD.

I'm still really troubled by all this, and still trying to learn what I need, and still having trouble, but not trouble like it's impossible, it's just hard at times to do it, to pick-up and read vs. sleep if I get depressed or whatever.

Persona, Why do you persecute yourself? It is hard to kick against the goats.

Is there some reason why are are sticking it out in GCx?

[theresearchpersona]

I can't leave like a hireling with men deceivin sheep so. I can't partake in the bad stuff: and I can' stand aroun as these men deceive everyone into thinking all being said here is just past stuff gone already (some think this).

I'm not exactly around as a career move: I have no interest in advancing myself, or their resources, or what I could gain. Often I'm without real Christian fellowship: which is fond (according to the word) in the Apostles' doctrins, and in persecutin for Christ's sake (that is, th real faith, not imitations).

Simply put with whatever "around" there i left...it's for love of brethren who need to be uncaptivated by deceitful, immaure, disqualified men: whom I also love, but they were chosen, and are chosing, based on unbiblical principles and guidelines: to lead according to the chooser's criterias rather than the word's own.

What is suffering? What is lack of fellowship in the midst of many people you love? My life's a vapor...and all is woth Christ. GC fends-off criticism saying "it all doesn't matter, in the end", but...the Word says otherwise. If my siblings in Christ can gain more from my losses and pain...all the better.

I don't intend to sit idly...nor try to be around as a subversive jerk tryin to undermine men deceitfully. I don't get to push agendas: I get to study and obey the word, and workto undo wha mus be undone, and strengthen that which needs it. One cannot merely add new to the old or the rent is made worse: when we see the sovereign grace forum/blog and its dilemnas, and when one reseaches the group's past, you realize that's exactly what they did: piled-on new patchwork onto bad foundations an created a deceitful and weird mixture that just doesn't work. No wonder they're confused. GC has parallels, constantly more with the coming-and-going fads.

Anyway, one thing I do have to say is that all this has made me serious about Jude 3: and see the constant need for it in the world these days. It won't win popularity contests for me, but it is the word that says woe to him whom men speak well of, is it not?

...

But as for the original post. I am hurting. It is lke that: sitting amongst many without true fellowship. I had i once, but because of agreement and the same excitemen (with cautious reservation and protests, as I've mentioned). But nevertheless I didn't know any better...until I learned there's a difference between reading the Bible, and reading with cautious consideration, understanding, and application; application of what on reads-into the text vs. drawing-from the text carefully and diligently studied, and then applying it. In GC it's as if watching a woman who claims to love her husband then disobey him and commit adultery: horrible, but true.

There's an interesting old quote about the Mormons, that among them there are the deceivers, and the deceived. Eventually, though, the deceived replace the deceivers, and perpetuate their heinou sins: I would like, if at all possible, to prevent this from happening among those I know.

[AgathaL'Orange]

RP:

Through the times on this board, I have come to have real affection for you!  And I have to say now that I am worried about you!  I think there's a chance you that are ruining your life!!!!!!!  How?  Here's what I think!

God does not demand that we have perfect knowledge or interpretation!  We can't.  It's impossible and PROUD to think that somehow we can understand the inner workings of God!  We simply cannot comprehend all there is to know about Christianity!  

And if you are remaining in a place that has no fellowship... you could look at it as though you "forsaken the assembling of yourselves together."  You need to find somewhere that you can fellowship with other Christians and you need to be able to lighten up a little.  Just a little!!!!  I sense that you are a very black and white person, and that's okay as long as you temper everything with the love and acceptance that Jesus taught!  

I'm sure you've been told often to lighten up... you take everything to seriously... yada, yada!  My intention is not to cut you down, but to encourage you to find a place of peace and rest for awhile.  Everyone needs friends.  You can't change GC on your own... or even with all of us!  As someone who has been there, I know what it is to be friendless and alone, believing something that no one around me believes.  

And then I stepped away and had no dogma for awhile.  I gained clarity of insight that only a different perspective can give, and I was able to find what I believe to be the truth!  I feel at peace and happy.  It is not up to me to change these people!  

Peace.  Love.  Light. (And double helpings of the Peace for you, RP)

[theresearchpersona]

I know it's not up to me to change anyone. However I do know it's my duty to be a voice of truth, especially where falsehood parades as if it is truth.

I'm not exactly friendless, but it is a fact that I hardly have true, biblical, Christian fellowship. And trouble is that I cannot seem to find a place where that can be had: too few today are concerned with what that even means in the inerests of wooing the world and reassigning Christianity as something to give themselves meaning, to romance themselves, and so on.

As far as Christianity is concerned: we're told to grow in knowledge, and become "perfect" (full grown/mature--it's not perfection as in how God is, of course). There are things of God that are unsearchable and mysterious...but that doesn't mean we cannot comprehend and learn that which he has revealed: the difference between our Faith, and that of the unregenerates of the world, is that we can grasp and understand it, scriptures assure us of this. They are not written with the expectation that "you cannot understand this": but rather that what is written is understandable--perhaps with difficulty--and sufficient.

My mind is content with thinking of God's infinite existence either in terms of time going infinitely backwards, or in terms that before his creation time just didn't exist (as far as we understand it's a function of 3 other dimensions--thanks Einstein). However that dosn't mean that's either correct, or that if we tried to unerstand how that is possible tha we could even try.

But in regards salvation we know how that works: Christ was a perfect sin-offering on our behalf, shedding his blood for the total remissinan cleansing of sins; he has washed us. And he is a more perfect one because He was not only crucified and dead, but resurrected, and all trusting totally in Him and nothing else (for His work is sure and complete--and he'll have no competition) are not only dead with him, but will share in His resurrection. Amen.

Some have a hard time grasping that--but to those who believe, the given to Christ by His Father, it's the most wonderful proclamation, the sure best of news, and easily grasped.

And that is just one doctrinal matter: clearly set forth in scripture. I don't bite mystery where there is none. Why did God love us who are wretched at all? That is a mystery.Why can a man love someone even in face of fear, imperfection, etc.? That is a mystery. Why do we love God? That is no mystery: because He first loved us.

Ours is a rational religion: though I know rational is unpopular being associated with cold sterility these days. But I can give an example: when someone loves another, or others, they may not be able to explain why (or maybe they can) but they can determine to do what is best for the other/s (for intance, in this case I could determine to put things forward and I might have to possibly leave: or perhaps I could stay--depends on the response, i.e. repentane vs. prideful self-protection and slandering; I know the precedents, but we might as well offer as many chances as possible,for love's sake). In the day I have children I won' be unthinkiing toward them, but rather do al with consideration...that is rational. The Word tells husbands to live with their wives "according to knowledge" (perhaps, "considerately"), again, rational: but not opposed to loving.

As far as seriousness: I am very serious, but when should a man not be? I do think I have a lot to learn there, but not in being un-serious, but in how to express it. Again, putting it into perspective, GC was attacking the word "religion" as of recently, which is fine in one sense of the word (reaching up to God) but not in the sense that even the Bible uses it! Biblically and historically Christians have not assaild words, but taken them out of unbelivers' and erring Christians' hands and defined them properly. Unbelievers abuse "religion" but the same could be said of "Jesus", which they turn into a curse word. They just wanted to create a catch-phrase to get attention "for Christ's sake", rather than boasting and preaching Christ (Who said the world will not listen to us).

But as far as proper seriousness goes,  a good example would be a husband: who should be religious (in devotion) to his wife: not putting her above Christ or up as an idol, but having undeterred, unchallenged, fidelity. When Christians show right seriousness they will be, by unbelievers, surely spoken of badly, at times, but also spoken of as "religious" without being accuseable of anything: and at times even respected. I've seen this in people.

I think that's partially the problem with writing, though, in that what seems stiff in writing may not in person: you miss the visuals--which can communicate a lot.

But that's part of GC's problem: when it comes under scrutiny it's all lightness, not seriousness, "we're no perfect, duh!". Then when it has brushed-off whoever it has made cry it goes into all seriousness in defending itself and spinning the situation.

But I am serious about truth; I'm serious about love; about fogiving, about rightly handling scripture, and being upright; about being sober and doing nothing that lets anyone blaspheme the One I profess to believe.Do I fail? You bet. Do I perhaps do so in te wrong ways? Surely. I find it ineresting, though, that about a hundred years ago Christian men where taugh to always be serious...but they didn't mean never laugh or anything such.

In these things, though, in regards to how a bunch of men are captivating those who ought to be focusing on Christ...and thinking they're doing this for God: I have to take it seriously.

Thank you, though, for the concern: and I don't say that dismissively. I do truly appreciate it. It shows me that you, well,take your brothers and sisters seriously; real as opposed to feigned love; real want of the best for someone as opposed to just hoping they'll go far in some organizational structure and vision. Those are all things I very much want for those in GC: they can pray no to treat people like projects all they want, and convince themselves, but if they still are,they still are: they never will cease to rob blind until they not only temper, but rebuke and denounce the business principles, and the wolves' teachings they assimilated, and the "Vision" of their founing false apostle, as well as his teachings, and that of the false apostles they've imported.

They will never find end to the almost forced, unnatural, marriages where later women discover they were married so their husband could "serve God", until Herschel Martindale and the remnants of the "all men should become pastors" teachings are silenced, along with his Greek bait-and-switch redefinition of slander; yet this doctrine and its effects have impregnated GC: just take a look at the websites sometime of different Churches and you find that moving-up the GC ranks is called things like "going deeper", "the next level", "special messages"; they have convinced a bunch of youth that being there is what's best and how to go deeper with God...rather than truly working in His Word: which leads to an unavoidable, and convenient, consequence that people stay for fear of missing out: and I think this is deliberate not only because of the explicit teachings in the past, but the more subtle ones of "guarantees" to see "great things" if they'll stay: false prophets!

I don't see trying to be faithfully obedient to the commands regarding how to deal with false prophets/teachers/teachings as a waste: I do see learned and taught disobedience wrought from twisted scriptures, teachers of their own experience, an zeal for men's visions as such: as well as slavery to all but Jesus.

If my conscience requires me to wait a while and work-out what I can, confront things, and loose time--even precious time, then a bit of delay in my plan: okay. That once would have been hard to say too, I've always been in a rush, and it always seems I've been hindered or having to learn patience and endurance.

Anyway, I haven't been uninterested in finding a faithful church and fellowship: it just seems that many are just as enamoured with worldly things, influence,power,culture wars...alll of so many things Jesus said we aren't to fret about! rather than obedience and fellowshp with Christ.

So if I cannot find a faithful Church: what can I do but contend for this one to be faithful? Besides, who has right commitment, those who are committed to men's vsions and following false leaders for "Christ's" sake, to find meaning and purpose and direction for themselves (thereby loving and keeping their life--never losing it), or those who strive for Christ's sake to not only be obedient of of great love, but who also admonish their brethren to do so in ferven affection? GC has false commitment going on: I wish they knew the true riches of real commitment and love.They have it all backwards: they say God works primarily through being devoted to one another, but no, truly you can only be devoted to one another in any meaningul sense or manner if you are first devoted to God so that when the necessity arose you would have to leave. Better to be alone with God than disobedient to Him with men: and I don't mean being a loner, because the sheep desire and love their fellow sheep. It's the subtle and fine things, razor-thin, that when they are so slightly differen or off make the difference between true and false.

[EverAStudent]

No one can tell you what to do.  You are entirely responsible for your own decisions in this matter.  Do as you feel will best advance the Kingdom of God while also being bedient to His Word.

Nonetheless, my advice would be to take up church hunting with a holy passion.  Don't stop till you find one that is Bible-compliant.


Remember when Jacob "strove" with (wrestled with, was an opponent against) God?  That was not a good thing for him to do!  God hates it when we strive against Him and He against us (Genesis 6:3).  Jacob fought against God (and other people) his whole life, trying to do things his own way.  When God wrestled with Jacob all night, Jacob stubbornly refused to bend to God (that is, God was unable to change his mind, so Jacob "won" or "prevailed" in his subborness).  So God was forced to send Jacob a dire wake-up call, He damaged Jacob's health (his hip).  All of a sudden Jacob realized, "Oh yeah, God is in control, not me" and his entire approach to others and to God changed that day.  

No, there is no threat of God's wrath against your health, I am not implying that all, that is not even the reason why I brought up the story of Jacob.  Rather, I want you to ask whether you are wrestling against God?  Perhaps you are not.  Only you know. If you are, be sure to let Him win.

To find out if you are wrestling against God by staying in GCI, ask yourself, would you ever recommend to any other person to join a GCI church?  Would you ever recomend to any other person to stay in a GCI church?  Perhaps you really can be the apostle John to your GCI church (and deliver them a warning to repent or lose their lampstand), but what will you do if they do not listen?  Have you delivered the message as clearly as John did in Revelation?  How long will you give them?

Again, only you really know if this is the right thing to do or not.  But I would maintain my counsel:  take up church hunting as your avocation until you succeed in finding a biblical one.  

Many blessings, brother.

[theresearchpersona]

And I must reiterate, though, that I do appreciate Aggatha's post. Truly and sincerely--dearly.

And I agree about the searchin.

Some good news, though...I knew about a certain character in recent Church history and that he had profound but bad influences on the Church; how it applied, though, I wasn't all sure--at least in regards to this stuff. However I just stumbled upon a pastor who does...and he's discussing how it applies, and it's nailing the contemporary aspects of GC straight-on. : )

For now I won't be posting what exactly it is: I don't want zealous protectionists to spin it. But let's just say I'm really really rejoicing right now! (Doing backflips inside!)

[Linda]

I'm not exactly friendless, but it is a fact that I hardly have true, biblical, Christian fellowship. And trouble is that I cannot seem to find a place where that can be had

I relate to your comment about finding it difficult to find a church where you can have fellowship with others that also has solid Biblical teaching. I am grateful that most of our long time Christian friends were not GC people and that the GC people who were our real friends (and some of them are pastors and their families) have remained faithful friends.

I also struggle with the sense that I need to "warn" people at GC and also need to "correct" false teaching. It's probably the main reason I post on this forum, but for our spiritual health, we had to leave our church.

As I have mentioned, Terry and I spent hours and hours talking with leaders (as have many posting here). It did no good and it was hard because we kept thinking that we must not be articulating our points well or surely they would have understood what we were saying. I have come to believe, however, that there is a dark spiritual element involved here (a key bit of evidence is the "Stepford" manner in which leaders will not hear both sides of a story--the information control--it's a bad thing) and that people need their eyes opened and opening eyes is not something I can do. Only God can. That thought frees me greatly.

Also, my husband reminds me that it is not my job to correct all the bad teaching in the world. (And since we got Direct TV, I've noticed a lot of it!) I want to seek first His kingdom, and I found it difficult to focus on God and  his sufficiency at our GC church. The teaching got in the way, we had to leave. It was hard and very sad because we care about the people left there.

So, I guess what I am saying is, I'm sorry that you have been having a hard time, I think many of us can relate to what you are saying. One thing we have been doing is checking out a lot of churches, listening to sermons, meeting and praying with friends in need, joining "non-Church" groups of Christians in Bible studies and discussion groups. It is still hard, but we see God at work in our lives, drawing us closer to Him.

God bless you.

[MidnightRider]

I can't leave like a hireling with men deceivin sheep so. I can't partake in the bad stuff: and I can' stand aroun as these men deceive everyone into thinking all being said here is just past stuff gone already (some think this).

You know the situation better than me, so I will defer to your judgment. Please beware of going off any deep ends.

So what can we do to help you exercise your gift of aggravation inside GCx?

[theresearchpersona]

Well, my intent really isn't to just be around as aggravation: but to testify to the truth (which will in the face ofloed error and untruth be aggravating); at any rate, hoever, I do have to stand for the truth, and I'm working things out. Perhaps I'll PM people later when neded.