Findings of Investigation Made Public

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[Linda]

Since I listened to a couple messages about Shimei and how David let him throw rocks at him and curse him, I was just curious as to whether or not the pastors were aware of what would appear to be one of David's final actions. It involves Shimei. It's in a list of instructions he is giving Solomon on his (David's) death bed. I know I hadn't remembered it until a friend pointed it out this morning.

It's in 1 Kings 2 and is rather startling. I really hope they don't preach their next sermon from this text and draw any crazy applications.

1 Kings 2: 8 “And remember Shimei son of Gera, the man from Bahurim in Benjamin. He cursed me with a terrible curse as I was fleeing to Mahanaim. When he came down to meet me at the Jordan River, I swore by the LORD that I would not kill him. 9 But that oath does not make him innocent. You are a wise man, and you will know how to arrange a bloody death for him.”

10 Then David died and was buried with his ancestors in the City of David.

[Peacemaker03]

Since I listened to a couple messages about Shimei and how David let him throw rocks at him and curse him, I was just curious as to whether or not the pastors were aware of what would appear to be one of David's final actions. It involves Shimei. It's in a list of instructions he is giving Solomon on his (David's) death bed. I know I hadn't remembered it until a friend pointed it out this morning.

It's in 1 Kings 2 and is rather startling. I really hope they don't preach their next sermon from this text and draw any crazy applications.

1 Kings 2: 8 “And remember Shimei son of Gera, the man from Bahurim in Benjamin. He cursed me with a terrible curse as I was fleeing to Mahanaim. When he came down to meet me at the Jordan River, I swore by the LORD that I would not kill him. 9 But that oath does not make him innocent. You are a wise man, and you will know how to arrange a bloody death for him.”

10 Then David died and was buried with his ancestors in the City of David.

It's stuff like this that really make me struggle with the Old Testament, and maybe the whole Bible at times.  Where I was frustrated with Spence is that he didn't play up more the passage where David encourages people to see it from Shemei's perspective.  That is what I want the Biblical response to criticism to be.  When you are criticized, work to understand the perspective of the person making the accusation, try to understand them and show empathy for their position, which is what I tried to take out of the 2 Samuel 16 passage, but then you are confronted by this from 1 Kings. 

David has always been a troubling character to me, flawed in so many ways, I struggle with how God found him to be more worthy of his favor than some other random peasant from the time.  I wanted to see the David of 2 Sam 16, the one who I was hoping was trying to see the world from his accuser perspective.  But now I'm confronted with the David of 1 Kings 2, who gets his last conversation with his son while on his death bed.  What is his last words to his son.  A message of Love, how much I love you son, and what a great man you've become?  A message pointing to God, "Son, with everything you have, put your focus on God, and do what you can to follow Him".  No, neither of those.  He goes with his last words of "Son, there was this guy who was mean to me back in the day, my dying wish is for you to hunt him down and kill him.  Do your Dad a solid, and bring vengeance on his enemies."  REALLY?  That is the last thing you have to say before you die?  And we now get to view you as a hero of the faith?

[Linda]

FYI, the rest of the Shimei story from 1 Kings 2. Solomon is now the king.

36 Then the king sent for Shimei and said to him, “Build yourself a house in Jerusalem and live there, but do not go anywhere else. 37 The day you leave and cross the Kidron Valley, you can be sure you will die; your blood will be on your own head.”

38 Shimei answered the king, “What you say is good. Your servant will do as my lord the king has said.” And Shimei stayed in Jerusalem for a long time.

39 But three years later, two of Shimei’s slaves ran off to Achish son of Maakah, king of Gath, and Shimei was told, “Your slaves are in Gath.” 40 At this, he saddled his donkey and went to Achish at Gath in search of his slaves. So Shimei went away and brought the slaves back from Gath.

41 When Solomon was told that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath and had returned, 42 the king summoned Shimei and said to him, “Did I not make you swear by the Lord and warn you, ‘On the day you leave to go anywhere else, you can be sure you will die’? At that time you said to me, ‘What you say is good. I will obey.’ 43 Why then did you not keep your oath to the Lord and obey the command I gave you?”

44 The king also said to Shimei, “You know in your heart all the wrong you did to my father David. Now the Lord will repay you for your wrongdoing. 45 But King Solomon will be blessed, and David’s throne will remain secure before the Lord forever.”

46 Then the king gave the order to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he went out and struck Shimei down and he died.

The kingdom was now established in Solomon’s hands.

[OneOfMany]

Since I listened to a couple messages about Shimei and how David let him throw rocks at him and curse him, I was just curious as to whether or not the pastors were aware of what would appear to be one of David's final actions. It involves Shimei. It's in a list of instructions he is giving Solomon on his (David's) death bed. I know I hadn't remembered it until a friend pointed it out this morning.

It's in 1 Kings 2 and is rather startling. I really hope they don't preach their next sermon from this text and draw any crazy applications.

1 Kings 2: 8 “And remember Shimei son of Gera, the man from Bahurim in Benjamin. He cursed me with a terrible curse as I was fleeing to Mahanaim. When he came down to meet me at the Jordan River, I swore by the LORD that I would not kill him. 9 But that oath does not make him innocent. You are a wise man, and you will know how to arrange a bloody death for him.”

10 Then David died and was buried with his ancestors in the City of David.

It's stuff like this that really make me struggle with the Old Testament, and maybe the whole Bible at times.  Where I was frustrated with Spence is that he didn't play up more the passage where David encourages people to see it from Shemei's perspective.  That is what I want the Biblical response to criticism to be.  When you are criticized, work to understand the perspective of the person making the accusation, try to understand them and show empathy for their position, which is what I tried to take out of the 2 Samuel 16 passage, but then you are confronted by this from 1 Kings. 

David has always been a troubling character to me, flawed in so many ways, I struggle with how God found him to be more worthy of his favor than some other random peasant from the time.  I wanted to see the David of 2 Sam 16, the one who I was hoping was trying to see the world from his accuser perspective.  But now I'm confronted with the David of 1 Kings 2, who gets his last conversation with his son while on his death bed.  What is his last words to his son.  A message of Love, how much I love you son, and what a great man you've become?  A message pointing to God, "Son, with everything you have, put your focus on God, and do what you can to follow Him".  No, neither of those.  He goes with his last words of "Son, there was this guy who was mean to me back in the day, my dying wish is for you to hunt him down and kill him.  Do your Dad a solid, and bring vengeance on his enemies."  REALLY?  That is the last thing you have to say before you die?  And we now get to view you as a hero of the faith?

Peacemaker. There is the world we have and the world we would like it to be.

The Bible is historical. It does not hide people's sin or failings. We all sin. Every one of us. What David said seems harsh. That was a different time and culture. David was old and we don't know how clearly he was thinking at the time. However all that is a mute point. You are missing the point. This had little to do with how people behave. The Bible shows that God is who he says he is. He does not lie. God made a promise as to whose line Jesus would be born. Fulfillment of that promise has nothing to do with who the people along that geneological line were or how they behaved.

[Linda]

Also, I question the wisdom of choosing examples like this and applying it to current situations, in this case, Mark Darling and the cover up accusation.

I believe Shimei was a bad guy.

David was a bad guy who repented (had a contrite spirit and a broken heart).

You can’t conclude anything about this relating to the current situation unless you make some sweeping assumptions.

All I know is if the accusations are true or even partially true, ECC should stop throwing the “unfair” and “unjust” stones in their messages to their congregants and start with a “We are so sorry.”

[AgathaL'Orange]

Wait so we (accusers, forum, critique givers) are Shimei?  And Mark D is God’s anointed like David?


It’s been a few days since I listened to it but that was my takeaway.  


So the rest of the story is Shimei dies as an act of revenge for all
the shade he’s thrown at God’s anointed.  Well that’s not scary at all.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

I understand the folks on here who want to give Brent the benefit of the doubt and accept his apology.  However, I am now too familiar with "non-apologies" from pastors to do the same (Mark Driscoll, Andy Savage, Paige Patterson, Doug Lebsack).  

It's hard to consider this a mistake he made "during the message" when he proactively, purposely, and intentionally changed the teaching series for all Evergreen Churches to the topic of Unfair Criticism (as per Spencer's teaching).  

I will give him that it is possible to miscommunicate mere "empathy" for Mark Darling, but I would be surprised if such an experienced speaker would "accidentally" say "It's been unfair, unjust," instead of "It's been hard to read things about Mark from people that don't see him the way I do..." or "this has been so hard on my good friend and it is difficult for me to know his pain right now."  Relaying empathy could have been done in many ways.  He might have realized after the fact it was a mistake, but it is hard to believe at the time he had not intended to portray Mark's innocence.  Especially because Brent only felt the need to share that he is grieving for Mark and did not include anyone else.  

"And honestly" is another way, in this sentence, to say "But..." Most information on apologies says that including a but (or a justification) is not a real apology.  He slipped in "it’s been frustrating for me" right in the middle of his "apology."  Kind of doubling down, like "okay, I'm apologizing but I still think this way..." or "I had a good reason to say what I did."

"Past experiences" and "challenges"...what does he mean by that?  Is he referring to abuse or harassment or spiritual abuse, or what?  If he can't even say those words in church then neither can the people who have "experienced" that "challenge." Another message that keeps people silent.

"I regret the miscommunication that should have been more accurate." Is this what the apology is for?  He never once said "I'm sorry for..."  

If a person truly laments what they did, it would include much more than this.  

The quote from the article posted afterward applies here, I think. This is what I think when some have posted that an apology and recognition of wrong doing is what people are asking for and we should be happy about it.  Like Daniel Tiger says, "Saying sorry is a good first step."  But Brent Knox needs to keep working on that one...

"An apology is the magic shield that protects Christians from all further criticism. However lame, however insincere-seeming, however self-serving, however untrustworthy, however impotent it might sound to its recipient(s), once one is issued, then the matter is now settled. The person receiving it is expected to make like Jesus and forgive immediately."

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rolltodisbelieve/2015/07/28/5-reasons-why-christian-apology-campaigns-fail/

Here is a transcript of the "apology"

"Hello, this is Brent Knox, I spoke the following message at the Rock on May 25, 2018.  This was before the release of the report of the investigation researching allegations of sexual misconduct by Mark Darling and allegations of cover-up by Evergreen. I would like to acknowledge a mistake that I made during the message.  Several minutes into the message I said ‘I grieve of what has happened with Mark. It has been unfair, unjust.’ My heart was simply to convey empathy for how Mark has been spoken about on social media. And honestly, it’s been frustrating for me. I did not intend to imply innocence or guilt regarding the heart of the allegations. I understand how my statement could have been interpreted otherwise. Our resolve to being neutral remains. I also recognize that this has been a painful time for those sifting through their past experiences. While I have been frustrated with aspects of the process, I would not want my statement to be dismissive of the challenges others are facing. I regret the miscommunication that should have been more accurate.  Please accept my apology and enjoy the message. "

[Rebel in a Good Way]

PM03, I just want to encourage you to keep pursuing your honest questions and wrestling with Scripture.  This is a perfectly legitimate question and worth following.  I used to "pretend" to believe things/accept them fully when I really didn't, but I didn't want to seem like I was questioning God or Scripture (didn't want to be a rebel, lol!).  But I think you will be blessed if you look in to different sources.  My professor was of the opinion that, after his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah, David's ministry and governance was less effective.  Doesn't mean that God was going to change his plan about establishing the royal line through David, or that he loved him any less, just that David was not what he might have been due to his significantly wicked choices.  I think this is different than the narrative we generally hear about David, but no less comforting to me.  A humble believer will accept any consequences after repentance and can still be confident in God's love.  David was a flawed human being and we are not called to emulate everything about him, but to draw out the godly characteristics and choices and learn from the bad ones.

It's stuff like this that really make me struggle with the Old Testament, and maybe the whole Bible at times.  Where I was frustrated with Spence is that he didn't play up more the passage where David encourages people to see it from Shemei's perspective.  That is what I want the Biblical response to criticism to be.  When you are criticized, work to understand the perspective of the person making the accusation, try to understand them and show empathy for their position, which is what I tried to take out of the 2 Samuel 16 passage, but then you are confronted by this from 1 Kings. 

David has always been a troubling character to me, flawed in so many ways, I struggle with how God found him to be more worthy of his favor than some other random peasant from the time.  I wanted to see the David of 2 Sam 16, the one who I was hoping was trying to see the world from his accuser perspective.  But now I'm confronted with the David of 1 Kings 2, who gets his last conversation with his son while on his death bed.  What is his last words to his son.  A message of Love, how much I love you son, and what a great man you've become?  A message pointing to God, "Son, with everything you have, put your focus on God, and do what you can to follow Him".  No, neither of those.  He goes with his last words of "Son, there was this guy who was mean to me back in the day, my dying wish is for you to hunt him down and kill him.  Do your Dad a solid, and bring vengeance on his enemies."  REALLY?  That is the last thing you have to say before you die?  And we now get to view you as a hero of the faith?

[Peace]

Rebel, I love what you just shared. That’s all.

[marie]

I want to reiterate the importance of Evergreen Board of Trustees making the findings of Joan Harris' investigation public.

• Transparency of results acts as accountability for those on the EC BOT making decisions about Mark Darling and those who have been involved in ongoing cover up for him. This is not to suggest that the BOT is unethical or dishonest but they have been placed in a position where for some they are deciding the fate of one of their employers and a friend.
• I, on behalf of myself and the other victims, have asked for the findings to be made public as we have nothing to hide.

• Joan Harris said she has asked the EC BOT several times to make the findings public as it will help in their credibility.  At the time I spoke with her about this, she said they would not.
• The findings could be released to the public and be done in a way to protect the identities of the victims, according to the BOT's attorney, Joan Harris.

• Joan Harris informed me that 2 documents were turned into her that support that the pastors were made aware of Mark's abuse of me 17ish years ago and another that Evergreen Church (not GCM/GCC) sent us an email offering us 50K if we would not speak ill or disparagingly of Evergreen and Mark Darling.  Since stating that publicly, some of Mark's supporters have said that I invented those documents and handed them into Joan myself.  If the report is made public, it would show that these two documents are in existence and not turned in by me.

Evergreen Board of Trustees, once again, I ask that Joan Harris' findings be made public, with the only redaction and omissions being ones to protect the victim's identities.  My hope is the report is published in its entirety.

scout[/list]

Evergreen- Make the investigation findings public.   
GCM national conference is at Evergreen in 2 weeks.  Should we stand outside the doors to request this? 

[Watching]

Marie - that's an interesting idea, isn't it?!  Standing outside the doors at the national pastor's conference, asIf king for truth and transparency from a Christian organization.  I'd consider it.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Ha ha, if they felt the need to keep the BOT secret because they were afraid of what people like us would to do them (try to influence, them harass them, or whatever they had invented), can you imagine if they found out we were going to plan a rally outside of their Pastor's Conference?  They would have to change to a secret location so as not to face criticism, (i.e. persecution).

Although I think this is an appropriate time for these kinds of actions, look at the SBC national conference this week.  If that's what it takes, I'm in for a peaceful gathering.

[Badger]

Videotape can also be helpful in leveling the playing field for any leaders who decide to be abusive in their language or actions towards those protesting.

[OneOfMany]

I have taken a few hours to process the possibility of a peaceful protest.

Given that going public on Twitter, Facebook and in the local media is the ONLY reason any possibility of improving the situation at GCM churches, especially Evergreen and the Rock could happen, the protest seems likely to be a helpful action towards change.

Good could come of it.

The media should be invited. I am thinking of those already reporting on this situation.

Those who are there should remain together, stay on camera even if it is only a GoPro or their phone.

Remaining calm and keeping voices to a normal conversational level is essential, in my opinion, to create a peaceful atmosphere and protest. This would also give those who participate a chance to tell pastors they know disappointed they are in their behavior. No yelling accusations. Keep it personal. And tell them what you want to see them do. For instance if Mark Bowen or Brent Knox walked by, I would ask them to step down. One simple sentence. If they wanted to engage in a conversation then I would listen more than talk. There is strength in self control and not letting one's buttons be pushed.

And anyone there who begins to feel triggered or manipulated or has anything akin to a flashback should step away. Because this could happen.

[Huldah]

Any updates on when the BOT plans to make an announcement? Do you think they're waiting to do it during the pastor's conference?

[Heidi]

Any updates on when the BOT plans to make an announcement? Do you think they're waiting to do it during the pastor's conference?

Good question.  I have been wondering the same thing.  It seems like they are hoping it all goes away. 

[DarthVader]

I would be surprised if anything was announced during the GCC Pastor's Conference. My guess would be the announcement, when it happens will happen early in the week (e.g., a Mon/Tue) to maximize distance between the announcement and weekend services. I wouldn't be shocked if it was during July 4th week (e.g. July 2/3) to take advantage of the fact that many are gone/distracted with family events during that time.  I think it's possible that every day that goes by increases the odds there is division on the BOT.  To say "not guilty, "all cleared" does not take very long; the delay may have two root causes:

1) Some BOT members are reluctant to impose serious consequences even though a majority feels this is appropriate.

2) Some BOT members are reluctant to let pastors off with light/no consequences even though a majority feels this is appropriate.

The only difference between 1&2 is which view is currently in the majority.  Given Joan's work is (should be) the only source of facts the Board will have, I would assume there are no disagreements about facts, only what to do about them, if, in fact there is any disagreement which is purely speculation (but hopefully not gossip, slander or caterwauling  )

[margaret]

LOL, DV!

[Watching]

DV - I have a feeling that those results won't be released that soon.  There is an all-location worship/prayer meeting on Sunday, July 8 in Bloomington.  I would be surprised if they made a decision before an all-church prayer gathering.  We shall see...

[DarthVader]

Interesting..I was in our service on Sunday and they didn't mention it, but I did find it on the ECC website.  Given the meeting is on the calendar, it could be re-purposed as a communication event if the results are out by then, but you're right, probably more likely results come out after.