Findings of Investigation Made Public

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[Scout]

I want to reiterate the importance of Evergreen Board of Trustees making the findings of Joan Harris' investigation public.

• Transparency of results acts as accountability for those on the EC BOT making decisions about Mark Darling and those who have been involved in ongoing cover up for him. This is not to suggest that the BOT is unethical or dishonest but they have been placed in a position where for some they are deciding the fate of one of their employers and a friend.
• I, on behalf of myself and the other victims, have asked for the findings to be made public as we have nothing to hide.

• Joan Harris said she has asked the EC BOT several times to make the findings public as it will help in their credibility.  At the time I spoke with her about this, she said they would not.
• The findings could be released to the public and be done in a way to protect the identities of the victims, according to the BOT's attorney, Joan Harris.

• Joan Harris informed me that 2 documents were turned into her that support that the pastors were made aware of Mark's abuse of me 17ish years ago and another that Evergreen Church (not GCM/GCC) sent us an email offering us 50K if we would not speak ill or disparagingly of Evergreen and Mark Darling.  Since stating that publicly, some of Mark's supporters have said that I invented those documents and handed them into Joan myself.  If the report is made public, it would show that these two documents are in existence and not turned in by me.

Evergreen Board of Trustees, once again, I ask that Joan Harris' findings be made public, with the only redaction and omissions being ones to protect the victim's identities.  My hope is the report is published in its entirety.

scout[/list]

[Watching]

Thank you, Scout, for speaking up again on this.  As a current ECC member, it's very concerning the way that this has been handled so far. I'm feeling much better about Joan Harris after you've explained your interview with her; she seems very credible.  My concern is that ECC will continue to hold information to protect MD, Evergreen, some of the pastors who have been involved in the 'cover up' from the beginning.  Which diminishes their credibility and creates a lot of questions about how things are handled (and if there are other things they are/have been hiding all these years).  Unfortunately, due to the way ECC has handled this so far, no matter what the report from Joan says, there will be many, like myself, that will doubt the credibility, integrity and character of our leaders.  As for myself, I'll definitely be reconsidering whether to stay at ECC.   No church is perfect, but this makes me uncomfortable.

[margaret]

Not sure if this is the right place for this question, but here goes.

To those of you currently attending one of the Evergreen churches, what is the general atmosphere like these days? Is there a pervasive mindset among the general members? Are lines being drawn?

[Watching]

Margaret - that is a very interesting question.  I was thinking about this a lot last night.  My thinking is that, if Scout was not telling some sort of truth, everyone would just be openly rejecting her accusations and we would be talking openly about it and boldly supporting Mark.  That's not the case.  NOBODY is talking about it - at all.  (Or maybe I'm just not in the right circles to be hearing the conversations.  I have been involved, in ministry, tithing, etc. for nearly 30 years, but have stayed just outside the 'inner circle' to not get drawn in to some things that didn't feel right.  But just outside enough to feel like an outsider).

Right now, at least for me, it feels very lonely.  I have no idea which 'side' anyone is on, much less if someone that I'm talking with is actually someone on this forum who may be making disparaging remarks against the accusers.  It feels very phony (to me).  I don't want to go to church and talk about the weather and summer vacation plans, when the big thing, at least in my mind, is "what is going on with ECC leadership and will we have some clear, honest answers?"  Maybe others feel differently.  Does that answer your question?

[KnowingGod]

Hello scout, I wouldn’t be too optimistic but I hope I’m wrong. Two weeks ago Brent Knox visited the Rock for thier Friday night sermon where he described Marks situation as “unfair” and “unjust,” comparing it to how Jesus was treated the same but overcame the world, and he used the example of the Minneapolis Miracle against the Saints when all hope seemed lost but despair turned to joy when they scored the winning touchdown and said “the world will not win.” He than went on to talk about the joy of the second coming of Christ in the book of revelation which is fine however it grossly sounded as though he was trying to encourage the congregation that in the same way Mark will be cleared and joy will return. I hope I’m wrong but the pattern of behavior from GCC when criticism occurs is not to reform but to double down and “plant your loyalty flag” into the ground. Evergreen conveniently started a series titled “the beauty of Criticism” as well.  I think it’s imortant to keep in mind that the BOT memeber from the Rock unless he or she has recused themselves and are not listening to any sermons which I highly doubt would be swayed like a juror listening to lead pastor act like a defense attorney (Brent Knox) since he gave his public opinion about a open investigation. If I’m proven wrong that the results are made public than I will publicly acknowledge that, but the arrogance and pride that is within GCC circles doesn’t give me much hope.

Margaret from friends who attend a GCC church I’ve been told it’s become somewhat divided and painful. There are the camps of mark loyalist and those who are neutral and letting the investigation play out. It must be hard if your of that latter considering it’s a very if your not with us your against us attitude among leaders to lay memebrs mentality.

[araignee19]

Scout, thank you for repeatedly calling for the release of the full report, and for giving your permission to share it fully, at least as far as your story is concerned. The fact that you are doing this greatly increases the credibility of your claims, in my opinion. The fact you are calling for full disclosure, and ECC is calling for “secrecy to protect the victims,” or something like that, says a lot. I still hope they do the right thing.

[DarthVader]

Hello scout, I wouldn’t be too optimistic but I hope I’m wrong. Two weeks ago Brent Knox visited the Rock for thier Friday night sermon where he described Marks situation as “unfair” and “unjust,” comparing it to how Jesus was treated the same but overcame the world, and he used the example of the Minneapolis Miracle against the Saints when all hope seemed lost but despair turned to joy when they scored the winning touchdown and said “the world will not win.” He than went on to talk about the joy of the second coming of Christ in the book of revelation which is fine however it grossly sounded as though he was trying to encourage the congregation that in the same way Mark will be cleared and joy will return. I hope I’m wrong but the pattern of behavior from GCC when criticism occurs is not to reform but to double down and “plant your loyalty flag” into the ground. Evergreen conveniently started a series titled “the beauty of Criticism” as well.  I think it’s imortant to keep in mind that the BOT memeber from the Rock unless he or she has recused themselves and are not listening to any sermons which I highly doubt would be swayed like a juror listening to lead pastor act like a defense attorney (Brent Knox) since he gave his public opinion about a open investigation. If I’m proven wrong that the results are made public than I will publicly acknowledge that, but the arrogance and pride that is within GCC circles doesn’t give me much hope.

Margaret from friends who attend a GCC church I’ve been told it’s become somewhat divided and painful. There are the camps of mark loyalist and those who are neutral and letting the investigation play out. It must be hard if your of that latter considering it’s a very if your not with us your against us attitude among leaders to lay memebrs mentality.

If true, I find Brent's remarks extremely troubling, as should all who are trying to give the integrity of the process the benefit of the doubt.

[KnowingGod]

http://subspla.sh/jkn64yj

Listen for yourself if you can and let me know if I misunderstood his context.

[OneOfMany]

Hello scout, I wouldn’t be too optimistic but I hope I’m wrong. Two weeks ago Brent Knox visited the Rock for thier Friday night sermon where he described Marks situation as “unfair” and “unjust,” comparing it to how Jesus was treated the same but overcame the world, and he used the example of the Minneapolis Miracle against the Saints when all hope seemed lost but despair turned to joy when they scored the winning touchdown and said “the world will not win.” He than went on to talk about the joy of the second coming of Christ in the book of revelation which is fine however it grossly sounded as though he was trying to encourage the congregation that in the same way Mark will be cleared and joy will return. I hope I’m wrong but the pattern of behavior from GCC when criticism occurs is not to reform but to double down and “plant your loyalty flag” into the ground. Evergreen conveniently started a series titled “the beauty of Criticism” as well.  I think it’s imortant to keep in mind that the BOT memeber from the Rock unless he or she has recused themselves and are not listening to any sermons which I highly doubt would be swayed like a juror listening to lead pastor act like a defense attorney (Brent Knox) since he gave his public opinion about a open investigation. If I’m proven wrong that the results are made public than I will publicly acknowledge that, but the arrogance and pride that is within GCC circles doesn’t give me much hope.

Margaret from friends who attend a GCC church I’ve been told it’s become somewhat divided and painful. There are the camps of mark loyalist and those who are neutral and letting the investigation play out. It must be hard if your of that latter considering it’s a very if your not with us your against us attitude among leaders to lay memebrs mentality.

If true, I find Brent's remarks extremely troubling, as should all who are trying to give the integrity of the process the benefit of the doubt.

This is why I am of the opinion that the problem is not Mark Darling. The problem is that this organization was founded by people who crave power and control. They use the bible as a vehicle of control. Plus music, lights, repetitious words, and other techniques used to manipulate and control groups and individuals. The good that is done within and by the group is absolutely necessary to pull this off because unless people come away seeing good out of the group they will leave. The good things cover up the evil that is done...until it does not.

These pastors were kind to me. They contributed good things to my life. However over time I saw the sinister truth that was the core of the group and the core of these pastors hearts and minds. Evil ways that these pastors I liked and trusted used to create their organization and that were an essential part of the groups core beliefs and ways of operating. These recent events leave me no hope for this group. To become Godly they would no longer be who they are. And I am coming to the conclusion that Brent Knox and Mark Darling having never believed in, followed nor taught the gospel of Jesus Christ have no intention of repentance. They in fact teach against repentance presenting it as a one time event although a shallow one. Just say you are sorry. Bing Bam Boom and you are a Christian.

May God rescue those deceived by this group.

[DarthVader]

http://subspla.sh/jkn64yj

Listen for yourself if you can and let me know if I misunderstood his context.

Thanks for sending the the link - I had trouble finding it online.  I listened to the whole message. I generally agree with your conclusions - Brent emphasized " how Jesus knew what it was to be unjustly accused" and then went on to say that "what happened to Mark" has been unfair and unjust.  To be fair, the section where Brent talked about Mark was very brief, and I interpreted the whole Viking analogy was perhaps more about the 2nd coming vs. Mark's coming back.  I didn't doubt you, but there is always interpretation and when facts are available, I prefer to start there.  Thanks again - I am troubled by his comments about Mark, and "what happened to him"- guess he's the victim now, being unfair and unjust.  After listening to the full message, I am concerned about what this means for the integrity of the investigation, but all who want to listen for themselves can - thanks again for the link.

[Mapleleaf]

http://subspla.sh/jkn64yj

Listen for yourself if you can and let me know if I misunderstood his context.

I would also question the line Brent used,  "He (Mark) has a way of making people uncomfortable and that is GOOD!"  With the nature of the accusations being make against Mark, that phrasing is a bit regrettable.

[KnowingGod]

Thanks DarthVader I appreciate the honesty and would agree with your assessment as well.

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Watching, I have been in a similar situation at a non-GCC church (the charges were spiritual abuse but there was an investigation involved) and I just want to say I think I understand well what you explain.  The loneliness, not knowing which 'side' people are on and who you can trust, or who might secretly despise you (in my case because I told the abusive pastors I thought they were abusive, so I figured my name was on some list somewhere, lol!).  In my case, I was on the 'side' of the accusers, rather than the accused, but during the investigation the accused were still in charge of the church.  The investigation found that they were, in fact, abusive, and I am thankful that the overseeing board had the courage to release the report in full in that situation.  But it felt so heavy to even walk in the doors, and took all my courage.  Even when the dust was settled, church was still lonely, attending was still stressful, and relationships were very complicated.  We ended up not being able to stay due to the transitional leadership's desire to "move on" and not address the real, hurtful abuse that had happened.

In my situation, people weren't participating on an anonymous forum but instead being nasty on Facebook.  Which was kind of nice, because then at least you knew which 'side' they were on.  Although behind the scenes there were threats made to people, F-bomb laden messages sent, and other sorts of darkness, which only shows how twisted people can get when they are trying to protect their power.  

All of that to affirm it is a truly painful experience and I am so sorry you are going through it right now. In my case, I consider it kind of a "cleansing fire" and am so thankful that I have the relationship with and understanding of God that I do now.  I can't help but think there would have been easier ways of getting here (like being in healthy churches from the get-go) but at any rate, I'm thankful  

Margaret - that is a very interesting question.  I was thinking about this a lot last night.  My thinking is that, if Scout was not telling some sort of truth, everyone would just be openly rejecting her accusations and we would be talking openly about it and boldly supporting Mark.  That's not the case.  NOBODY is talking about it - at all.  (Or maybe I'm just not in the right circles to be hearing the conversations.  I have been involved, in ministry, tithing, etc. for nearly 30 years, but have stayed just outside the 'inner circle' to not get drawn in to some things that didn't feel right.  But just outside enough to feel like an outsider).

Right now, at least for me, it feels very lonely.  I have no idea which 'side' anyone is on, much less if someone that I'm talking with is actually someone on this forum who may be making disparaging remarks against the accusers.  It feels very phony (to me).  I don't want to go to church and talk about the weather and summer vacation plans, when the big thing, at least in my mind, is "what is going on with ECC leadership and will we have some clear, honest answers?"  Maybe others feel differently.  Does that answer your question?

[Rebel in a Good Way]

Yes, had the exact same thought!

I would also question the line Brent used,  "He (Mark) has a way of making people uncomfortable and that is GOOD!"  With the nature of the accusations being make against Mark, that phrasing is a bit regrettable.

[Badger]

http://subspla.sh/jkn64yj

Listen for yourself if you can and let me know if I misunderstood his context.

I don't think you took it out of context KnowingGod.

I know your hearts are troubled and mine is too.  And I grieve what happened to Mark Darling; it’s been unfair; it’s been unjust.  He’s been alone.  It’s been tough.  He’s meant a lot to me over the years.  He has sharpened me in more ways than I can count.  Many times he’s made me uncomfortable.  Do you know what I mean, by that?  He knows how to make us uncomfortable, which is really good.   And I know that I would not even be standing here today if it weren’t for his input into my life.  God’s worked through him to me.  And so my heart is troubled.  But I take heart because Jesus has overcome the world.  The world will not win in the end.  - Brent Knox to The Rock 05/25/18

Has he made Brent uncomfortable with giving him long hugs with an erection, talking to him about how he orgasms, etc?  To minimize the excrement that Mark Darling has done to women in his congregation by saying he makes us all uncomfortable is disgusting.

For those of you saying I've already made up my mind regarding Mark before the investigation has been released -  Yes, I have.  But so has Brent Knox.  I believe Mark Darling's victims that have come forward.

[Mary7]

[/quote]

This is why I am of the opinion that the problem is not Mark Darling. The problem is that this organization was founded by people who crave power and control. They use the bible as a vehicle of control. Plus music, lights, repetitious words, and other techniques used to manipulate and control groups and individuals. The good that is done within and by the group is absolutely necessary to pull this off because unless people come away seeing good out of the group they will leave. The good things cover up the evil that is done...until it does not.

These pastors were kind to me. They contributed good things to my life. However over time I saw the sinister truth that was the core of the group and the core of these pastors hearts and minds. Evil ways that these pastors I liked and trusted used to create their organization and that were an essential part of the groups core beliefs and ways of operating. These recent events leave me no hope for this group. To become Godly they would no longer be who they are. And I am coming to the conclusion that Brent Knox and Mark Darling having never believed in, followed nor taught the gospel of Jesus Christ have no intention of repentance. They in fact teach against repentance presenting it as a one time event although a shallow one. Just say you are sorry. Bing Bam Boom and you are a Christian.

May God rescue those deceived by this group.
[/quote]

This is such a good explanation.

[GodisFaithful]

Brent Knox:  "It's been unfair. It's been unjust."

How does he know this? There has been an investigation in which Evergreen Church picked the lawyer who investigated accusations and Evergreen also picked the BOT who will decide the outcome and whether to release the results and the lawyer gives all of her finding to the BOT and it was said by Mark Darling supporters that the lawyer is no  slouch and is doing a thorough job and that for sure the BOT will not be biased in their decision. There is no corruption among the pastors, none, never has been, and all decisions they make and the BOT makes will be completely fair, so says the Evergreen church supporters on this forum. So what is unfair? What is unjust?

I don't doubt that Mark has felt alone and that it has been hard. If it turns out that the victims have been telling the truth, it has been hard for them, too, and I am sure that at times they felt very alone in trying to make sense of what happened to them.

And that comment about how Mark Darling makes people feel uncomfortable and how that is such a good thing, in the context of the allegations, is creepy.

What happened to Jesus was unjust, too. Maybe this talk by Brent Knox gave Jeromy the impetus for fashioning a whip...  It's crazy folks. And sad.

[Phoenix]

Margaret from friends who attend a GCC church I’ve been told it’s become somewhat divided and painful. There are the camps of mark loyalist and those who are neutral and letting the investigation play out. It must be hard if your of that latter considering it’s a very if your not with us your against us attitude among leaders to lay memebrs mentality.

Member the last 24+ years and I disagree, there are three or more camps depending how you draw lines.

• CAMP 1:  Clueless and confused (grouped together) - These are the people that are newer to the church and barely know MD, are not deeply connected, not close enough to leadership, etc.
  
• CAMP 2:  Loyal to MD/church (some in this group are likely questioning this loyalty, if not publicly then internally)
• CAMP 3:  Those that believe the accusations to some degree.  These people have left or are waiting for the report and to see how it is handled.  Will the opportunity of repentance and change be taken.  (I have lived in this camp for months.)

I can personally that tell you I have had long, intense, tear-filled, and painful conversations with dear friends.  They have been in both the loyal camp and the camp that believes the accusations.

Please Lord, let the BoT complete their review of Joan's report and deliver it to Lynn/Jim ASAP.  Then I pray the whole report is released in its entirety.

EDIT:  Yes, I meant to include that Agatha.  I would have no problem with a redacted form as long as the true result of the report is still intact.  H/T to Agatha for helping reminding me.

[AgathaL'Orange]

They could release the report and redact some things.


A summary could be given removing identifying information of the victims.

To me that could still be "complete."  They could even ask Joan for one final thing, to write a report that redacts info while still being "complete" and then that copy could be released.

[AgathaL'Orange]

Oh, and one more thing, the fact that there is NO governing body that members can go to in order to seek a remedy to this should be a major red flag to everyone.

The buck stops with the leadership, and thats it.  Nobody to go to beyond that. This could be your wife, daughter, son, husband. This could be you.  And what would you want done? 

I listened to as much of the BK sermon as I could stomach, and tuned out when he compared it to football.  Because yes, it's just like football.  Football is as serious as sexual harassment allegations.  Give me a break.  I had to shut it off, it was too upsetting and I, as a former member, don't need to be a part of it anymore. 

I'm only here for people who need a sounding board, other than that, I'm out.  This group is in my past, and it will never ever be in my present again.