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Author Topic: What if MD is found to NOT be....  (Read 151634 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #140 on: March 27, 2018, 03:03:01 pm »

If I wasn't outer circle before this all started I definitely am now... Grin


 Undecided Undecided Undecided



Okay, so this board.  Is it an Evergreen Board of Trustees?  Or is this a special board for this investigation only?
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DarthVader
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« Reply #141 on: March 27, 2018, 03:05:44 pm »

It's only special in the sense that Mark Bowen, Chairman, has recused himself. Otherwise it's the same poor souls who thought they signed up for rubber-stamping the budget...
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Mapleleaf
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« Reply #142 on: March 27, 2018, 03:06:30 pm »

One more perspective on the anonymity of the board from someone within the church.  I asked my pastor who the board members were.  They were willing to give me the name of the member from our Evergreen location, and did tell me the names of the two other non-location members (Lynn and the finance director).  I asked for the other four members, but was told that they would not share those, and I would only be given the name of the member from my location.  They also asked that I not share the board member from my location with those outside the church, so I will respect their request and not share it here (and yes, as stated it was about the fear that the board would receive unwanted attention from those outside the church during the investigation).  So, as a member of the church, i was told who 3 of the 7 board members are.  I agree with Darth that this level of partial transparency is troubling.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #143 on: March 27, 2018, 03:07:39 pm »

Yeah, watch out DV, well, you know where you are welcome!

So GTA was told a few weeks ago who is on the board, but she forgets, but now if you "suddenly" want to know, it is an active investigation and there would be valid reasons why a member of the church at this point, suddenly, would not be told. But no one knows what those reasons are. Reasons are reasons.

This is so silly!
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #144 on: March 27, 2018, 03:18:32 pm »

DV, poor souls is right! 

Keeping the list secret probably is best for these poor souls who did not know what they were getting into.

The pastors appoint them to the BOT?

And DV, you were not told the member of the BOT from your particular location? That speaks outer circle to me.  Shocked

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DarthVader
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« Reply #145 on: March 27, 2018, 03:29:32 pm »

I know who our location board rep. is..I was told by our pastor the day the news hit the churches, and he also "outed" himself at our location leadership meeting shortly after the news hit.  It makes me sad. I didn't think I went to a church like this -   a Secret Board is indefensible, especially in times of crisis - anonymity is a great defense against accountability...and to answer your question, yes, each of the 5 locations has 1 BOT rep. selected by the pastors of the location.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 03:32:39 pm by DarthVader » Logged
Linda
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« Reply #146 on: March 27, 2018, 03:31:36 pm »

"And I say to you, wherever you find men ruled merely by mystery, it is the mystery of iniquity. If the devil tells you something is too fearful to look at, look at it. If he says something is too terrible to hear, hear it. If you think some truth unbearable, bear it."
ĖG. K. Chesterton

You have got to be kidding me!

All the men being investigated (either for abuse or cover up of abuse) know full well who every single member of that board is.

In fact, all the men being investigated are responsible for each member of the board being placed there.

Some members of the church are able to know who is on the board and some members are not allowed that information.

The talking points that the powers that be are setting forth is that it would not be fair to announce the board members because some people might try to unduly influence the board! Never mind that the board is already beholden to and protected by the elders who are protecting their identity.

Seriously, if you are a member there and you have no idea who is making decisions about church hiring, church discipline, salaries, benefits, purchases, you might want to think again about the nature of the organization to which you belong.

This is astonishing!

« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 03:33:19 pm by Linda » Logged

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Linda
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« Reply #147 on: March 27, 2018, 03:37:26 pm »

Thinking some more.

Could some of the members of the BOT be children or in-laws or spouses or parents or close friends of those being investigated?

Could they be staff members who fear losing their jobs?

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #148 on: March 27, 2018, 03:43:26 pm »

All this time, I didn't realize they were talking about a secret board.  I had no idea.  I really don't know what to say.
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UffDa
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« Reply #149 on: March 27, 2018, 05:53:25 pm »

I posted this on another thread that I will be contacting the MN State Attorney General Office in regards if Evergreen Church as a 501(c)3 has to publish/file their Board Members or if that information can be private.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #150 on: March 27, 2018, 05:54:33 pm »

Current member (since 2003). Have asked my pastor and Lynn Newman. Was told it is non public information..and Iíve been clear in other posts on my thoughts on a secret Board. Iím going to generalize and say anyone who doesnít have an issue with a secret Board has drunk the koolaid to a greater degree than I will ever be capable of.


Totally agree, DarthVader!
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For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Boggs
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« Reply #151 on: March 27, 2018, 05:55:24 pm »

If I wasn't outer circle before this all started I definitely am now... Grin

Welcome to the Outer Rim, Darth Vader  Grin
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HughHoney
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« Reply #152 on: March 27, 2018, 06:16:34 pm »

Quote
Whether you want to believe this or not, the leadership does have an accountability structure and they do take transparency and accountability extremely seriously. Their seriousness for accountability and transparency is probably the reason they were eager to show they have nothing to hide by hiring this investigator.

This quote did not age well.
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #153 on: March 27, 2018, 06:31:21 pm »

Hugh Honey,

May I suggest a paraphrase?

We are accountable because you see we are accountable because we are just so serious about being accountable and transparent because being accountable and transparent is so serious so .... we were not even afraid to hire this lawyer, see? Because we are just so seriously serious about being transparent and transparently accountable. And if you don't think THAT is good enough, then you must think all the pastors are corrupt instead of being accountable and transparent. Seriously!!!!!!  Shocked
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #154 on: March 27, 2018, 06:34:33 pm »

Glad for the civil discussion here.

Very sad that there has been NO discussion between the supposed "investigator" and Scout.  Personally, I am not expecting an honorable or respectable outcome based on the "Investigator's" copy of her unprofessional and impartial email accidentally copied to Scout.  Perhaps something small and incidental will be proposed simply to save the reputation of the church in question.  I also think it is quite disturbing that the GCC Board of Directors has evaded responsibility in all of this.  It would seem to be unreasonable that they who claim perception about of the "sins" of all their followers and regularly have them reported, as is the traditional GCx custom (according to many a testimony on this site) that they would NOT PERCEIVE the (alleged) actual longstanding sin of one of their own leaders!
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 07:49:26 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

For grace is given not because we have done good works, but in order that we may be able to do them.        - Saint Augustine
Differentstrokes
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« Reply #155 on: March 27, 2018, 06:50:57 pm »

Janet, I agree
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GodisFaithful
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« Reply #156 on: March 27, 2018, 06:58:40 pm »

Is this investigation looking independent to anyone?  We were supposed to all believe that it is independent. Why? Because they said so.

Now we find out that they will not be handing over the results to a known entity. It is a shadow BOT.

Why? Because they fear that some of Scout's supporters will try to influence.  But their members get to know at least some of them. And some inner circle members supposedly get to know all of the BOT. So there could be influence there, right?

Could someone explain how this is independent? I am not getting it.

And the results of this so called investigation...wow.  Evergreen Pastors, I believe, are in a real pickle.  But maybe they will think they are good to go.
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araignee19
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« Reply #157 on: March 27, 2018, 09:10:25 pm »

I agree we should wait for results before speculating. But to me, the names of people who are on the board is critical mostly because I want to know that it is not made up of family members of the pastors, people on the payroll of ECC, or other people where a clear conflict of interests is present. No one on this forum claimed to be impartial and independent, nor are we involved in the investigation; therefore, we have no responsibility to reveal our identities.

Claiming this investigation is independent and done by a third party when we can't see who initiated it, who controls the results, or confirm it was conducted without conflicts of interest is not ok. I do not believe this would hold up to any outside scrutiny. It is not standard practice. And for no other reason than avoiding even the appearance of evil, the board should not be anonymous in this process.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 09:21:02 pm by araignee19 » Logged
Mapleleaf
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« Reply #158 on: March 28, 2018, 10:12:04 am »

Jeromy,
I am genuinely troubled with how you see everything in the world, including the people, as so clearly black and white.  It seems like you want to characterize everything that is brought up on this forum in this black and white world view.  The trouble is the this world, and most specifically the people in it, are all shades of grey.  My understanding is that in the history of the world, there has been only one truly white human creation, and he died on a cross 2,000 years ago.  The rest of us all have some good sides, and some bad sides.  We have things where we did well and want to world to see and talk about, and we have areas of our life that we'd rather keep in the closet, hidden in our past.  In my first post I stated that I believe Scout account of what happened, and stated that there may be parts that were not remembered exactly right after 25-30 years, but I believe the overarching important items of her account.  In your post, you rephrase that as "I believe that MD is a perverted, lying, sex-hungry, serial philanderer and that his wife is too dumb to know or knows and doesn't care.  I believe everything about his life and his children's life has been a facade" and that if these accusations are true, it would make "your entire childhood a lie".  Jeromy, your are stretching what I said to a remarkable level.  If that is the internal talk you are telling yourself, rephrasing anyone who questions your fathers complete innocence to that level of extreme, that can be very troubling and lead to some harmful psychology.  I didn't state anything about your mother.  I didn't state anything about how the accusations against your father would lessen the Christian walk that you or your siblings are leading, you are separate people.  Furthermore, if some of these accusations against your father are true, that doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean that he wasn't (A) a loving father who worked hard to raise four upstanding Christian children, or (B) a quality pastor with over 30 years of helping people grow in their faith.  One bad thing being true about a person DOES NOT equate all good things they've done must now be torn down.  It is not that BLACK AND WHITE.  If there is one bad thing about a person's past, it doesn't mean that every other good thing that he's ever done in his life now doesn't matter or that all other good things they've done are all lies. Whether it is how you view your father, how you view the other people on this forum, or how you view all the other people in this world, you have to realize that we're all just fallen creatures resulting is varying shades of grey.  Some good, some bad, and we're all just trying to make the best of the good, and minimize the bad.

In fact, I think the above topic would also be a good thing to remember to some of the members on this forum, as they also tend to look at GCx, it's leaders, and it's history, with a similar very black and white worldview.
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jeromydaviddarling
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« Reply #159 on: March 28, 2018, 07:04:48 pm »

Jeromy,
I am genuinely troubled with how you see everything in the world, including the people, as so clearly black and white.  It seems like you want to characterize everything that is brought up on this forum in this black and white world view.  The trouble is the this world, and most specifically the people in it, are all shades of grey.  My understanding is that in the history of the world, there has been only one truly white human creation, and he died on a cross 2,000 years ago.
You're absolutely right. Jesus was the only perfect human, and they killed him for it. In fact one of the main reasons the crowds turned on Jesus was because he spoke in absolutes. Because he was so black and white on sin. And that's why I'm so black and white.

The rest of us all have some good sides, and some bad sides.  We have things where we did well and want to world to see and talk about, and we have areas of our life that we'd rather keep in the closet, hidden in our past.  In my first post I stated that I believe Scout account of what happened, and stated that there may be parts that were not remembered exactly right after 25-30 years, but I believe the overarching important items of her account.
I think that is rather trivializing your initial letter which I found to be incredibly black and white. In fact I find it extremely ironic that a person I know, but who's hiding their true identity from me, is trying to give me very black and white advice on how I should be less black and white. Once you start talking in Gray, you lose all Authority

In your post, you rephrase that as "I believe that MD is a perverted, lying, sex-hungry, serial philanderer and that his wife is too dumb to know or knows and doesn't care.  I believe everything about his life and his children's life has been a facade" and that if these accusations are true, it would make "your entire childhood a lie".  Jeromy, your are stretching what I said to a remarkable level.  If that is the internal talk you are telling yourself, rephrasing anyone who questions your fathers complete innocence to that level of extreme, that can be very troubling and lead to some harmful psychology.  I didn't state anything about your mother.  I didn't state anything about how the accusations against your father would lessen the Christian walk that you or your siblings are leading, you are separate people.  Furthermore, if some of these accusations against your father are true, that doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean that he wasn't (A) a loving father who worked hard to raise four upstanding Christian children, or (B) a quality pastor with over 30 years of helping people grow in their faith.  One bad thing being true about a person DOES NOT equate all good things they've done must now be torn down.  It is not that BLACK AND WHITE.  If there is one bad thing about a person's past, it doesn't mean that every other good thing that he's ever done in his life now doesn't matter or that all other good things they've done are all lies.

 see this is what I don't understand. Everyone on this board has said something similar to me, as if my father was accused of shoplifting. You can't undo Decades of research on sexual predators and groomers. You can't just so passively imply that a man that sexually grooms and abuses women psychologically, is also a tremendous husband and father. They do not exist in the same person. Not once. Not ever.  by accepting everything Suzanne said, which you stated you do. By accepting everything the fake victims said, which you stated you do, you were implying that my dad has had multiple emotional Affairs and is on some level a sexual deviant. You are also implying, by proxy, that my mother was too stupid to know this was taking place, or must have known but didn't really care. Those are the only implications one could draw if you believe the accusations against my father are true. You can believe what you want, but you don't need to patronize me in the process. Sexual abuse accusations cut to the very core of a man, to his children, and to his wife. So here's a black and white statement for you: the most righteous men are also the ones most likely to be falsely accused and abused like this.


Whether it is how you view your father, how you view the other people on this forum, or how you view all the other people in this world, you have to realize that we're all just fallen creatures resulting is varying shades of grey.  Some good, some bad, and we're all just trying to make the best of the good, and minimize the bad.

 I don't think you realize how incriminating that sounds towards you. I'm a sinner saved by grace and I'm trying to be more like Christ. Period. I learned that incredible value from my father


In fact, I think the above topic would also be a good thing to remember to some of the members on this forum, as they also tend to look at GCx, it's leaders, and it's history, with a similar very black and white worldview.

Agree 100%

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