Leadership: Elders and Apostles

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[observer]

Apostles and Elders does seem to be a pretty terrible book, even by the low standards of GC. The mandate for unity was clearly an effort by those at the top to get a grip on the so called "movement" they started, yet the wording of the passage is rich in ambiguity and contradiction. I think such rhetorical messes are a quality of authoritarianism. Just look at Donald Trump's word salads.

[Peace]

Also, the book is from 1984, not 1976, so there's that.

Sorry I didn't explain better.

I was trying to show that the "unity is the cardinal doctrine teaching" goes way back with McCotter/Clark. It's part of the DNA of the group.

It has never been corrected. Dennis Clark, who co-wrte the book, has never stated publicly that he disagrees with that teaching in the book he wrote and he sat on the board of GCC for many years. Dennis is still listed as board member emeritus.

http://gccweb.org/about/gcc-board/

GCC published the book. They have never corrected that teaching.

This book along with other printed materials, excerpts from messages, transcripts from conversations and other "evidence" has never been corrected... According to how Linda (and some others) would like to see it corrected. I would disagree and say that much of this "evidence" has been corrected. Has it been perfect? No. But personally, I am satisfied with the conversations I have had at my local church with my local pastors and leaders.

Please see my last post here: http://forum.gcmwarning.com/general-discussion/question-for-evergreen's-supporters/msg17538/#msg17538

As I have stated in previous posts, apologies, corrections and dialogue are futile to some on this forum because it appears unless their demands are met, they will never be satisfied nor cease in their mission.

[Mary7]

Question: did GC print a lot of books in the early days? This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a GC sister’s house. She had a small book that was straight from Great Commission early days on her table. I picked it up and was reading through it when she came back into the room. (I should’ve asked first, I know) and she took it out of my hands and said something to the effect that I wasn’t ready to read that material yet. It was just such a weird interaction. Wish I remembered the title. But that’s not the point, to me the weird part is forcefully assessing if someone else is “ready” to read material sent out by your church. This wasn’t my only experience with “next level” teaching, sometimes I was included and sometimes not. Maybe this is normal in more churches than just GC but I hadn’t encountered secret teaching before or since the GC church.

What’s funny is if she would’ve let me read the book, I’m sure I would have believed every word.

[Huldah]

You guys seem to think all the pastors worship McCotter.

I would not call this an accurate assessment at all. What we do here is discuss the roots of GC, some of which have had an impact that remains to this day, at least in pockets of the movement. Even though there has been a distancing from McCotter, the national leaders who knew him and started the movement with him have never fully repudiated his teachings. His influence is still part of the DNA, so to speak.

[Greentruth]

Key word, so to speak. Give an example of what the pastors today teach that you think relate them to Mc Cotter, and what his teachings did to harm the congregation.

[MidnightRider]

Question: did GC print a lot of books in the early days? This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a GC sister’s house. She had a small book that was straight from Great Commission early days on her table. I picked it up and was reading through it [...]

There were a number of booklets that circulated around.

I can only think of a couple and I can’t remember the author of either:

“Go! The Cry from Eternity” - This was about the Great Commission. It taught that you cannot obey the Great Commission unless you “go” to share the gospel.

“Should a Christian Date?” - The cover had “How Should a Christian Date?” with the word “How” X-ed out.

I remember one more, written by Jim McCotter, titled “Chapter Seven” - This was McCotter’s teaching on 1 Corinthians 7. He encouraged lifelong singleness so that you could devote yourself to reaching the world with the gospel.

[Godtrumpsall]

Question: did GC print a lot of books in the early days? This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a GC sister’s house. She had a small book that was straight from Great Commission early days on her table. I picked it up and was reading through it [...]

There were a number of booklets that circulated around.

I can only think of a couple and I can’t remember the author of either:

“Go! The Cry from Eternity” - This was about the Great Commission. It taught that you cannot obey the Great Commission unless you “go” to share the gospel.

“Should a Christian Date?” - The cover had “How Should a Christian Date?” with the word “How” X-ed out.

I remember one more, written by Jim McCotter, titled “Chapter Seven” - This was McCotter’s teaching on 1 Corinthians 7. He encouraged lifelong singleness so that you could devote yourself to reaching the world with the gospel.

Many churches still teach today that casual dating is not the best for Christians.  This is not a false teaching handed down from McCotter, this is only a church value. 

[PietWowo]

About Unity of Believers. The very topic shows that truth is important.... I mean they are believers. So, they "believe"  So, that implies truth.

Yes, Christ was very clear about His desire for all of the believers to be united. The letters in the New Testament are clear about this.

About 38 years ago, I spend some time walking with Jim McCotter, talking about this very thing.... He agreed that it's more important to have the Gospel straight then just to unite with people.

As far as Jim McCotter is concerned. The GCx movement has clearly distanced themselves from him. I believe that they always have an appreciation for him, in the sense that he built that movement, but they state clearly that he will not be part of the GCx movement in the future.

Someone compared it with Calvanism, but the difference is that the Calvanist continue quoting Calvin. GCx is not continuing to promote Jim as a leader in their midst.  But it is good in my opinion that they honour him. That doesn't mean they agree with everything he says.

Besides that this book is over 30 years old. Most people with GCx right now don't even know about that book. Probably not even all of the GCx pastors know about that book.

But yes, to get back to the original post.... Unity has to be within the context of truth. Particularly God's Word, the Bible.

[KnowingGod]

PietWowo did you accept McCotters self appointed  Apostleship doctrine?

[OneOfMany]

About Unity of Believers. The very topic shows that truth is important.... I mean they are believers. So, they "believe"  So, that implies truth.

Yes, Christ was very clear about His desire for all of the believers to be united. The letters in the New Testament are clear about this.

About 38 years ago, I spend some time walking with Jim McCotter, talking about this very thing.... He agreed that it's more important to have the Gospel straight then just to unite with people.

As far as Jim McCotter is concerned. The GCx movement has clearly distanced themselves from him. I believe that they always have an appreciation for him, in the sense that he built that movement, but they state clearly that he will not be part of the GCx movement in the future.

Someone compared it with Calvanism, but the difference is that the Calvanist continue quoting Calvin. GCx is not continuing to promote Jim as a leader in their midst.  But it is good in my opinion that they honour him. That doesn't mean they agree with everything he says.

Besides that this book is over 30 years old. Most people with GCx right now don't even know about that book. Probably not even all of the GCx pastors know about that book.

But yes, to get back to the original post.... Unity has to be within the context of truth. Particularly God's Word, the Bible.

Welcome
Welcome to De-Commissioned, a forum for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You are supporting McCotter? Really? You found the wrong board.

[PietWowo]

About Unity of Believers. The very topic shows that truth is important.... I mean they are believers. So, they "believe"  So, that implies truth.

Yes, Christ was very clear about His desire for all of the believers to be united. The letters in the New Testament are clear about this.

About 38 years ago, I spend some time walking with Jim McCotter, talking about this very thing.... He agreed that it's more important to have the Gospel straight then just to unite with people.

As far as Jim McCotter is concerned. The GCx movement has clearly distanced themselves from him. I believe that they always have an appreciation for him, in the sense that he built that movement, but they state clearly that he will not be part of the GCx movement in the future.

Someone compared it with Calvanism, but the difference is that the Calvanist continue quoting Calvin. GCx is not continuing to promote Jim as a leader in their midst.  But it is good in my opinion that they honour him. That doesn't mean they agree with everything he says.

Besides that this book is over 30 years old. Most people with GCx right now don't even know about that book. Probably not even all of the GCx pastors know about that book.

But yes, to get back to the original post.... Unity has to be within the context of truth. Particularly God's Word, the Bible.

Welcome
Welcome to De-Commissioned, a forum for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, and the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You are supporting McCotter? Really? You found the wrong board.

I don't know how you got the idea that I'm supporting Jim McCotter from what I wrote above. Why are you supporting Jim McCotter?

BTW, thank you for your service to the USA!!! My dad was a veteran too, but he passed away.

[PietWowo]

Let me get this straight....1976? You are all fixating on stuff from over 40 yrs ago? You all make it a habit to post on here for over a decade because the church didn't see things your way and wasn't a good fit? Posting at 1am, 4am?

Adam was referencing an old book. The teaching in that book has been around for years and caused a kerfuffle and got a guy excommunicated. It was a big deal.

Every GCC board member and the founding pastors all know who McCotter is and learned from him.

Posting at 1:00 and 4:00? Am? Wasn’t me. Not that it would matter.

Times are different in different part of the world. For instance when it is 1:00 AM in the EST, it would be 8:00 AM in Jerusalem.

[Ghost]

Hey Putt Putt......Well Well a little Demon ressurrected.....i thought all of you excommunicated from this site....go back to the Mark Darling camp..your not welcome here...

[Ghost]

Thanks Putt Putt....your only helping putting forth the message that  the tree has been chopped down,,,now just removing the roots and dirty soil surrounding Evergreen..Mark Darling..Brent Knox and the demonic minions like you......God be the glory...amen..

[PietWowo]

Continually rehashing thoughts of negative events in the past is self-abuse and can be more destructive than physical harm.

Or to put it another way, those who fixate on the past and spend years posting on boards like this, don't seem too happy.

I agree 100% here.

[Linda]

"May God give us a driving spirit of unity, a spirit that consistently burns brighter and hotter than all jealousy, envy and selfish ambition put together! There must be unity at all cost. When believers divide over so-called doctrine, they are always trampling under foot the cardinal doctrine — UNITY. The scripture itself gives a list of the only truths we should ever divide over in Ephesians 4:1-6 (the only addition would involve a person that is under church discipline). We should always have a fervent love, unity and respect for every Christian, though we may not labor with every Christian. We must always realize, all believers that are not with us, if they are not against us, are always on our side. Jesus said so (Luke 9:50)! So let us promote plural autonomous leadership in and for the spirit of unity. It is the New Testament way."

The emboldened part strikes me as particularly silly, and I am surprised that none of the "Response Publications" quote this whopper as clearly deficient. Do the book really say this?

Just a reminder.

This thread was started by Adam and the purpose was to question the accuracy of some majorly heretical McCotter teaching that was pointed out.

It has morphed into an assessment of the state of happiness of the people who are trying to help people see the hidden bad teaching of GC.

It’s always a treat when people who don’t know me judge my “happiness”.

#thisisnuts

[PietWowo]

Question: did GC print a lot of books in the early days? This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a GC sister’s house. She had a small book that was straight from Great Commission early days on her table. I picked it up and was reading through it [...]

There were a number of booklets that circulated around.

I can only think of a couple and I can’t remember the author of either:

“Go! The Cry from Eternity” - This was about the Great Commission. It taught that you cannot obey the Great Commission unless you “go” to share the gospel.

“Should a Christian Date?” - The cover had “How Should a Christian Date?” with the word “How” X-ed out.

I remember one more, written by Jim McCotter, titled “Chapter Seven” - This was McCotter’s teaching on 1 Corinthians 7. He encouraged lifelong singleness so that you could devote yourself to reaching the world with the gospel.

First book. wow, now that's an old one.... That was from back in the Seventies and maybe first year or so of the Eighties.

The word "Go" in Matt 28 is a participle. The command is actually "Make Disciples." There are three steps: "Go, baptize, and teach."

If you were to obey this command, it would include doing all three. It's like a mother saying: "While sweeping the floor, clean the room, picking up your toys, storing them in the boxes."  They have to sweep, pick up, and store. If they don't, they are disobedient. It's called the sin of omission.

Second book. Very ancient too. Basically encourages non dating and waiting for the Lord to "lead" one to get married, with the counsel of others.

Third book, chapter 7 from the mid Eighties. This was a book that came out in a group of about half a dozen books or so. I read it, never felt that it encourages singles to stay single. But it's been over 30 years that I read this.

[PietWowo]

Question: did GC print a lot of books in the early days? This thread reminds me of a time when I was at a GC sister’s house. She had a small book that was straight from Great Commission early days on her table. I picked it up and was reading through it [...]

There were a number of booklets that circulated around.

I can only think of a couple and I can’t remember the author of either:

“Go! The Cry from Eternity” - This was about the Great Commission. It taught that you cannot obey the Great Commission unless you “go” to share the gospel.

“Should a Christian Date?” - The cover had “How Should a Christian Date?” with the word “How” X-ed out.

I remember one more, written by Jim McCotter, titled “Chapter Seven” - This was McCotter’s teaching on 1 Corinthians 7. He encouraged lifelong singleness so that you could devote yourself to reaching the world with the gospel.

Many churches still teach today that casual dating is not the best for Christians.  This is not a false teaching handed down from McCotter, this is only a church value. 

I agree with that. BTW, those first two were written by Henry Hintermeister. The last one by Jim McCotter.

Lots of churches have their own ways of doing things. They talk about the type of music that you can listen to, what type of clothes to wear, etc, etc.... Oh and of course tithing.

[PietWowo]

Key word, so to speak. Give an example of what the pastors today teach that you think relate them to Mc Cotter, and what his teachings did to harm the congregation.

I would not be surprised if there are GCx pastors, who don't even know who Jim McCotter is. Definitely not in some of the countries outside of the USA.

[PietWowo]

PietWowo did you accept McCotters self appointed  Apostleship doctrine?

The term "Apostle" is a very controversial term in and of itself. When used, one has to always figure out what they mean when they use that term, otherwise, it will be misunderstood. All that an apostle is in the Greek, (I studied KOINE Greek for several years and translated parts of the New Testament) is someone, who is sent. As such every missionary is sent and could be called an Apostle. Even when a mother sends her child to pick up a loaf of bread at the grocery store. That child is an "Apostle." However, it's not that way in the current language of course. So, when one communicates in this current language, it's better to use terms that are better understood.

It's just like if I go around saying that I'm a priest, I speak the truth, but what people hear is that I'm a Catholic priest, which I'm not.

The proof of an Apostle in the sense of the Apostle Paul was that he started a church, or church plant. (That's different than the 12, who were to be personal eye witnesses of the ministry and death and resurrection of Christ.

But in hindsight, I think it would have been better to use the word "church planter" instead of apostle, because it created too much confusion and maybe even an idea of authority, which might have gone beyond the scope of what the Scriptures teach. I think everyone here whether they like Jim McCotter or not would consider him a church planter, even if you disagree with him and or the churches he planted.

But again, folks, its over 30 years ago... GCx is no longer associated with Jim McCotter, outside of their history. But if you were to go to a GCx church and were to do a survey, I would be surprised if more then 1 out 5 would even know who he is. He is more famous on this forum, than in those churches.