Downtown Church in Des Moines

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[lone gone]

a link to a news article in the Des Moines Register about the Wlanut Creek offshoot church in downtown Des Moines,Ia.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20081129/NEWS/811290320/1001/NEWS

The Des Moines Register is the same paper that investigated cultic allegations at the pre-GC church in Ames,Ia led by Jim McCotter back in the 70's.

I know Tim Rude and Walnut Breek has been pilloried here and elsewhere.

[Linda]

Judging from his comment after the article, Dr. Sam doesn't have a problem with a church that is all about "capturing recent high school graduates through 35-year-olds". As a parent of high school graduates through 35 year olds, I am greatly concerned.

Terry made an interesting observation this morning. We were recalling numerous testimonies during our years in a GC church. Many went something like this, "My life was a mess. Then God led me to ECC."

On the surface, that sounds fine, but really it is a twisting of what is right. The real measure of a church that is doing the right thing uses the same words, but in a different order. The church should be pointing people to God, not the other way around.

In fact, I now "judge" sermons by that criteria. When the sermon is all said and done, did the pastor point me to God and his all sufficiency, or did the pastor point me to the local congregation and how great they are and how I should be committed locally for the rest of my life.

Thanks for posting the link.

[DrSam]

Judging from his comment after the article, Dr. Sam doesn't have a problem with a church that is all about "capturing recent high school graduates through 35-year-olds". As a parent of high school graduates through 35 year olds, I am greatly concerned.

Linda, what's wrong? I get the feeling that if I could dance for you or not dance for you, you would not be happy. Lighten up.

As for Rev. Tim Rude... I was his pastor one time and I think I can say that Tim is a good person who loves Jesus just like you want to love Him also. You will never find any perfect group. I'm sure you know that well. The disciples of Jesus were full of their own dysfunctions even after Jesus left.

I take Paul's stance. I may not agree with everything but I rejoice that the Good News is getting out and Christ in some way or another is being shared.

I rejoice especially when it is a known fact that Evangelical churches are dying. Older persons are leaving the church through the front door and younger folks are leaving it through the back door. If we are not careful we will not have many to take the mantle in the next generation. By whatever means you may recommend or implement there needs to be a concerted effort to appeal to the younger generation. If you have a better way then jump in. The work is large and can use more ideas and more workers.

[theresearchpersona]

Sam, if they're pointing to themselves...no good. If, however, rather than strategizing and relying on various organizers and idea men to maintain everything, they preach God's word untwisted and Christ's sufficiency, repentance and faith in Christ, and of course we musn't forget "be holy" (and ensuring they understand it's not for salvation, but it's our joy, Romans 12) and they stay for that, to be fed, equipped to serve by that word (not secular principles clothed in evangelingo), then fine.

[Linda]

Sam, the thing I found most interesting about your comment was that you knew about the postings here and the concerns many of us parents have about our parental roles being usurped by sincere, but misguided pastors, and in your comment you chose to offer "kudos" to the group. That is your right, of course, I just found it noteworthy.

I am a Christian parent who sees GC in a different light, due to many experiences my children had there and some pretty direct attempts by leadership to come between us and our children (NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS SENDING OUR CHILDREN A COPY OF A LETTER REBUKING US.) While, I have no doubt that most of the leaders love the Lord, I believe some significant aspects of their teaching is flawed and since they teach each other, the flaws are perpetuated.

I just ask you to consider that some of us think that putting young adults in a church led by a 24 year old GCLI taught guy (and I'm sure he's a great guy) is not a good thing.

[Linda]

About the Philippians verses you mentioned, your old friend Larry Pile addressed them in a post many months ago. I found his answer quite insightful. Here's what he wrote:

In regard to Phil. 1:15-17–

If the issue (s) was/were merely that of GC* pastors, teachers and others preaching Christ “out of envy and strife” I wouldn’t mind so much. But I know of no ex-leaders or ex-members who make that charge. I for one have always believed and said that so far as I can tell the founders (including McCotter) and other leaders are all sincere. And I DO rejoice that Christ is being and has been preached — often with great clarity and success.

What I criticize is the damage that has often been inflicted on new converts (and “old” ones too) by authortaritarian leadership/discipleship, of which this blog is prime evidence.

I also object to the past (?) climate in GC* that led leaders and others to play fast and loose with the truth on many occasions.

Notice also that, though Paul didn’t name any names in Phil. 1, he did point out the problem in a negative way.

[trthskr]

really...he's not so great.  Too many of my friends refuse to go to church because he's told them they're going to hell.  not cool.

[AgathaL'Orange]

In what context did he say this?

[trthskr]

To be completely honest, I can't tell you what the exact words were because I wasn't there.  I know that he was "sharing" with one of my friends when it happened.  There have been quite a few CRAZY ideas and theology spread to my classmates that I'm just finding out about now.  It's really very sad.

Oh - and I know that in sharing the gospel with people, they do take away the message that Christians believe in only one way to heaven, so that if they don't accept Christ, then Christians believe they will go to hell.  I just think that there needs to be a bit more tact and care in the way that it is shared with non-Christians.  Also - no one - I don't care who you are - can judge a person's heart and know if they are a Christian or not - so there's no reason to tell someone they are going to hell.  It is completely unacceptable.  If a person accepts the Lord on account of this, it is just fire insurance and I think they'd be missing the point.

[theresearchpersona]

Um...you'd be speaking even against the apostles then; part of the offense of the gospel is, yes, if you don't believe in Christ, you will burn: separated from God in a "flaming fire" (NIV likes to "nice" it up with "everlasting destruction").

Now with "tact", I would say there's a place for it: I remember a gal angry over some preacher calling her friend a "dike": this is a guy who also claimed to have no sin, however (which the word warns us is a spirit of antichrist, so no need to listen to him...run along). Yet even Paul on Mars Hill, which commentators have said is a discourse that is "studiously courteous" does something interesting: while he was so, he also rips their entire world view to shreds, even co-opting old (outmoded) greek poets to do it, piece by piece (this is the same scene quoted by people saying we need to build bridges, be relevant, and bring people into the Church vs. the other way around: it's the reason Mark Driscoll's is named "Mars Hill" and other emergents quack around imitating the world (though some are truly worldly) as if being alike, rather than separate and adorned with Christ, is what counts).

If someone point-blank said "if I don't believe then will I go to hell" there's one straightforward, honest, answer (and you'd be surprised how many people actually appreciate it when one does not beat around the bush), "yes": Christ and His apostles all said thusly; they all told their audiences of their need of Christ, but salvation not "from hell", but from sin and death, from the wrath of God (which hell is, but we needn't forget God the judge will gladly dole-out justice, the Bible using vivid language like he will "laugh" at their calamity and give them no relief). The word says to preach to them "flee the wrath to come"; the Christian doesn't try to veil these things in pleasantries, they are urgent.

And now that I've said that, I've just preached to myself...thanks for that opportunity. With love and all, and I'm glad your concerned, however, with being appropriate!