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Author Topic: The Roots of Evergreen  (Read 8222 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2018, 08:02:10 am »

Have the evil church hoppers on this forum that you know personally ever shared what they are looking for in a church?  Are you a friend or just the judge of their motives?  Do you think people might be traumatized by the exits or post-exit struggles?  Do you just observe their church hopping or did you learn about it from other people?  How do you know the attendance records of others?  Do you keep a calendar?  How do you know why they didnít prefer a certain church or denomination? Did they tell you this?   How do you know all this and why are you adding it to the list of reasons why they are bad and should be discredited?

I know to people who believe in committing to a church for life, their behavior must feel deplorable to you.  

Please try to have compassion.  Unless someone is telling you, ďGee Iím hard to please.  All those churches stink,Ē or something like that, I highly doubt you know their motives.  And when people ever share anything with you or you hear it from others maybe try not to be so judgmental.

Btw, there are some cities in the Midwest where there are few churches I would consider attending.  I AM picky about church because I do enjoy getting very involved.  So sometimes it takes awhile to find something thatís a good fit.  And once youíve had a GC experience that is even harder.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:05:13 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Linda
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« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2018, 09:03:30 am »

Quote from: Huldah
Seriously, what is the actual count of active forum members who've left ECC, whom you know personally, who've been permanently unable to settle into new church home because they're never satisfied?

Yes, give us the count, please, isthisreal?. Also, tell us how you have been able to identify these people since most are anonymous.

We have been out of ECC nearly 12 years. Started at a very large Baptist church where the teaching was solid and where we felt the leadership could be trusted because they were accountable to the congregation. (And had proved it.) We felt safe there, both for us and for our youngest daughter. When she reached high school years, we moved to a smaller church that we have attended regularly for over 5 years. So, two churches in 12 years.

Current church pastor knows our names and our ECC story. We feel safe there.

I'm just wondering who you are talking about, how you know their names, and who is feeding you all this information. It's very odd.

Edited to add this:

Quote from: isthisreal?
I am also not making up all the disgruntled people I know personally on this forum that have spent over a decade church hopping and never being satisfied in any church they attend. This does say something to me about the character of your members.

I forgot to mention that I am very satisfied in the church I attend. I always leave thinking about how big and how great God is (and not thinking about how great the church or the pastor is).


« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 10:32:31 am by Linda » Logged

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LisaFeist
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« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2018, 09:45:16 am »

Yes IsThisReal, I would also like to know who ďall of the disgruntled peopleĒ are that you are talking about. that you are ďnot making upĒ? It doesnít make sense since most are anonymous. And according to the ECC posters why should I believe you? You have a fake name. Do you know me? Do you think I am disgruntled? Very curious.
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Shamednomore
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« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2018, 06:00:25 pm »


I grew up in a gc church in the 90s.  I attended youth retreats, faithwalkers, LTís, mission trips and even home church.  I was homeschooled.  I know about being a girl and then a young women in an organization that teaches ďauthorityĒ for women.   Our authority figures were the men in our lives: pastors, father and husband.  I always had the feeling that my authoritiesí views and words were absolute.  Meaning I did not question (it would be sin).  As a child, I was more reserved and shy than most, and my quiet nature was easily manipulated.  I know very well the shame based gospel.  Spanking was everywhere.  Wrong looks, bad countenance, you name it.  Growing up in my gc Church, the god I knew was a rigid, angry, righteous, rule making, shaming, impossible to please god.  There were so many rights and wrongs I couldnít keep them straight.  It wasnít fun or beautiful or applicable to my life.  I constantly had people speak into my life, without me asking, to point out my sins or encourage me to be a ďbetterĒ Christian or point me in the ďrightĒ direction.  Some people would pretend to be my friend and ask me about my life.  I would tell them personal things I was going through.  They would then turn around and tell ďauthoritiesĒ in my life.  These ďfriendsĒ said they felt convicted to tell my authorities (probably to save themselves from guilt or the devil) who would help me confess and turn from my sins.  Portraying happy Christian on the outside was the most important thing.  As a teenager, some of my sins were so ďbadĒ, I had to apologize to a pastor bc I was told that my sin hurt the body of Christ as a whole.  Never mind that I was dying on the inside.  Gc squelched my individuality and dreams and crushed my spirit.  My eyes became completely dead.  There was no light, I was so lost and confused and very sad.  I contemplated suicide on a regular basis.  As a kid, I would sneak out in the middle of the night and walk along the highway hoping someone would kidnap me so that I couldnít be blamed for killing my self or running away voluntarily.  I learned early on to always pretend.  Pretend I was okay with only being allowed to have friendships with gc people.  Pretend everything was fine.  Pretend I wasnít going through any problems.  Always be obedient, respectful, happy, remorseful....all the pretending and burying caused so much pain.  As I got older, I engaged in a lot of self destructive behaviors and got involved in extremely abusive relationships.  The effects run deep. 
I know about authority figures asking about my sins and I was supposed to confess everything.  It would pour out of me like vomit.  I was so afraid they would find out if I didnít and I would be labeled deceitful.  I was afraid all the time.  I thought there were gc spies everywhere watching so they could report my sin back to my authority.  I donít think they ever were, but there was such an unhealthy amount of fear and guilt at all times.  We didnít question authority, we just obeyed.  If Mark Darling had been an authority figure in my life, I would have gone anywhere he told me to and told him anything he asked me.  It would have felt like sin not to.
If Mark had used the exact same tactics with single young men, would his followers be making excuses for him?  Men: how would you feel if your pastor asked you what you sounded like when you had an orgasm?  How would you feel if he touched your knee while talking about sexual things next to a fire?  How would you feel if he hugged you too long with an erection?  How would you feel if he called you on the phone for hours to counsel you?  Sexual undertones and one on one talks.  Would it make you uncomfortable?  Would you accept his apology if he said he was only trying to help and it was done in love and he was sorry you ďtook it wrongĒ?  What if Mark was just a therapist and not a pastor?  Should a therapist be able to talk about orgasm sounds and have erections during sex therapy?  A therapist would have their license removed.  I would shout from the mountain tops if my son or daughter went to a therapist who did these things, let alone a pastor.  GCers are trained to view pastors as authority.  The pastors are speaking FOR god.  You do not question, you just heed and obey.  We needed to follow.  We didnít want to be labeled divisive.  This environment creates an unhealthy power dynamic.  (Again, Iím speaking from my experience back then in the 90ís; things might not be done this way anymore, but this is how it was then.)
There are so many current members speaking up right now, using language I heard ALL THE TIME.  You either agree with what they are telling you or you will be punished, talked about sarcastically, dismissed, Made fun of, Questioned about the sin in your life and/ or Be accused of losing the faith.  If anyone left our church, it was whispered about them having unrepented sin or they had been deceived.  Donít ask questions.  Donít speak up for it will hurt gods image and hurt the body of Christ.  Quietly deal with your own sin, in humility. 

I have learned through therapy that Speaking honestly about what I experienced isnít bad.  It is the truth.  It wonít hurt God or Christianity.  God doesnít need to let sin continue in order to protect his image or protect the church.  He spoke out against wrong in the Church all the time in the New Testament.  He doesnít need a fake smile or a perfect exterior.  Speaking up will stop the wrong behavior from continuing.  It will bring stillness and rest in the souls of people who have been hurt. 
For Suzanne and the other ladies: you have been heard.  I stand with you.  Being a part of the gc movement during those times, I know the teachings, power dynamics, and authority gospel.  There are too many women sharing similar accounts to where I believe MD had a pattern of behavior and it was manipulative and abusive.  Emotionally, spiritually and sexually.  It wasnít right.  The way the church mishandled it wasnít right.
I  needed a lot of therapy to heal and forgive and unlearn shame and brainwashing.  I have learned who I am as a human being in Godís eyes and no one can take that from me.  I have been at my current church for over 8 years.  I started attending because it was so big that I could easily slip in and out of service without being noticed.  Although I have been involved womenís studies, couples groups, and childrenís ministries, I am still cautious of building close relationships with people in my church.  I donít know if I can ever allow myself to be vulnerable like that again. 
I think this forum is very important in healing and moving forward for those of us who have felt the heavy-handedness of gc authority or gc doctrine.  It is unlearning one gospel to relearn a new one.  It is also very important for me to know others just like me that left gc but Are STILL Christians.  WE DIDNT ABANDON OUR FAITH.  God isnít found ONLY in a gc Church, god is with Christians wherever they go.  God can have a deep relationship with a woman without speaking through her authority-He will speak directly to her!  I have forgiven the people from my past that hurt me and I hold no bitterness because they have asked for forgiveness and they no longer behave the same way.  Even if they hadnít asked my forgiveness, I now believe they were just trying to follow gc doctrine to save themselves.  They were manipulated and brainwashed as well. 
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DarthVader
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« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2018, 06:29:40 pm »

Thank you for sharing. I believe you and Iím sorry for what happened to you.
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araignee19
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2018, 07:05:43 pm »

Shamednomore, thank you so much for sharing your story and thoughts.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2018, 09:28:39 pm »

Shamednomore, I "felt" your story as much as read it.  Thanks for the clear words.  I'm glad you have found healing, but the effects do run deep.
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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2018, 10:34:47 pm »

ShamedNoMore,

Thank you, thank you for your HONEST, HELPFUL, and HEALING testimony post!!!  I cannot say enough to it's power, purpose, and personalness.  You have made so clear the deep hurt and harm of GCx teachings and practice to yourself and so many of us.  You have well declared what God's purpose is for this website and forum - to inform, testify, confirm, support, and warn of it's manifest SPIRITUAL ABUSE!!!  I believe others who read your heart wrenching experience will be set at rest to see that there is not something shameful with them, but with the SHAMEFUL TWISTED lessons of Christianity taught to them.  Your precious story will bring much healing!

Thank you, thank you for sharing your personal story with us.


Blessed to Read Your Story,

Janet
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:20:36 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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Linda
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« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2018, 05:08:36 am »

Shamednomore,

Thank you so much for taking the time to write your story. I am sorry for all you have been through and inspired by your faith. God bless you.
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Differentstrokes
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« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2018, 05:18:04 am »

SnM, I feel your story on a personal level. Thank you for aharing.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2018, 06:35:53 am »

This I can relate with as I grew up hating The Lutheran Church my parents made us go to. They took us to a town away from our school friends, so we didnít know anyone there. We would always get dropped off for Sunday School and then church afterwards with our parents. We were picked on and usually had tear filled episodes before going. When I was old enough for confirmation my parents finally took us to the Lutheran Church in the town we went to school, but by that time I felt Church and God where impossible to please, as I grew older and had to usher I felt judged as I felt forced to do it. When I graduated and left home I quit going to church, but I prayed every night as I feared going to hell. It wasnít until I went through a very painful divorce that I found the peace I had always longed for through excepting Jesus Christ as my Savior. Many of my friends I grew up with went-to different denominations and non denomination churches, had the exact same experience, and sadly some still to this day hating any church organization. My own son walked away from God and Church because when he prayed to except Jesus he said he felt nothing. I was with him and was encouraging him to except Jesus, and how wonderful it would be. I was young in my walk with God and didnít know I should have reached out by example, not just talk. God saves, we plant the seeds and just Love no matter the status.   We as parents and leaders of any church who have the spirit filled relationships with Jesus want so bad for our loved ones and others to experince the same spirit of joy that sets us free and gives us hope. My son took a course in world religion in college and came out agnostic, and leaning towards Buddhism. Love and excepting is all I can do now. So many of us as parents get it wrong, and so many, if not all churches fail with this at some point. I taught Sunday school, and you could tell the children who didnít want to be there. Itís a very difficult area for any church, but the majority of fault is with the parent. To blame the Church is just an easy out for those who fail. Only God can change the heart, and to attack any church for not doing what only God can is sad. The ECC Churches I had experience at taught the love and lead by example. No matter what church you go to,you will have some who push to save, which isnít bad in theory and intent, but wrong on giving it to God. SNM,  I hope you donít have to go to the end of your rope to find the spirit of peace and love through Jesus. It is so awesome, and once you have Him, no one can separate you. I will pray you find that peace, as I have.
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Shamednomore
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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2018, 06:43:34 am »

You donít need to pray I find Jesus and peace like you have.  I already have Him-or rather, He has me.  Iím right where Iím supposed to be.  And I firmly believe that gc has flawed views on authority and I firmly stand by my previous comment that God through the Holy Spirit is with Christians all the time.  They do not need to run to the nearest GC church to find Him.



This I can relate with as I grew up hating The Lutheran Church my parents made us go to. They took us to a town away from our school friends, so we didnít know anyone there. We would always get dropped off for Sunday School and then church afterwards with our parents. We were picked on and usually had tear filled episodes before going. When I was old enough for confirmation my parents finally took us to the Lutheran Church in the town we went to school, but by that time I felt Church and God where impossible to please, as I grew older and had to usher I felt judged as I felt forced to do it. When I graduated and left home I quit going to church, but I prayed every night as I feared going to hell. It wasnít until I went through a very painful divorce that I found the peace I had always longed for through excepting Jesus Christ as my Savior. Many of my friends I grew up with went-to different denominations and non denomination churches, had the exact same experience, and sadly some still to this day hating any church organization. My own son walked away from God and Church because when he prayed to except Jesus he said he felt nothing. I was with him and was encouraging him to except Jesus, and how wonderful it would be. I was young in my walk with God and didnít know I should have reached out by example, not just talk. God saves, we plant the seeds and just Love no matter the status.   We as parents and leaders of any church who have the spirit filled relationships with Jesus want so bad for our loved ones and others to experince the same spirit of joy that sets us free and gives us hope. My son took a course in world religion in college and came out agnostic, and leaning towards Buddhism. Love and excepting is all I can do now. So many of us as parents get it wrong, and so many, if not all churches fail with this at some point. I taught Sunday school, and you could tell the children who didnít want to be there. Itís a very difficult area for any church, but the majority of fault is with the parent. To blame the Church is just an easy out for those who fail. Only God can change the heart, and to attack any church for not doing what only God can is sad. The ECC Churches I had experience at taught the love and lead by example. No matter what church you go to,you will have some who push to save, which isnít bad in theory and intent, but wrong on giving it to God. SNM,  I hope you donít have to go to the end of your rope to find the spirit of peace and love through Jesus. It is so awesome, and once you have Him, no one can separate you. I will pray you find that peace, as I have.
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Huldah
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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2018, 07:23:35 am »

I have learned through therapy that Speaking honestly about what I experienced isnít bad.  It is the truth.  It wonít hurt God or Christianity.  God doesnít need to let sin continue in order to protect his image or protect the church.  He spoke out against wrong in the Church all the time in the New Testament.  He doesnít need a fake smile or a perfect exterior.  Speaking up will stop the wrong behavior from continuing.  It will bring stillness and rest in the souls of people who have been hurt.

ShamedNoMore, thank you so much for your post. I'm so sorry for everything you went through. If there's one point I wish GC leaders (and leaders of other churches) would finally get, it's this part about speaking honestly. God's glory is not dependent on protecting the reputation of any pastor or any local congregation. His righteousness has nothing to do with whitewashed sepulchres.

In the 90's, when you were a kid, there was a huge push in evangelical circles for hyper-authoritarian parenting, as taught by people like Michael Pearl and Gary Ezzo, and to a lesser extent James Dobson. It was a rigid, graceless, punitive way to bring up a child, and we're now seeing the horrible fruits of it in a generation of kids who've frequently lost all interest in God. It's so unfair for anyone to say that this was mostly the parents' fault, when it was the church leadership who pushed these teachings to the exclusion of gentler, more loving methods.

Some of what you went through, with the constant spying and reporting, had its roots all the way back to my day in the movement in the late 70's. It was hard enough for me, as a young woman, to live that way. For an innocent child, it must have been a nightmare.

I'm glad you're now at peace with God. May He always be your comfort and shield.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:31:57 am by Huldah » Logged
Greentruth
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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2018, 08:07:07 am »

SNM, Many experienced the same thing you did at different Churches. You blame a GC Church, I blamed the Lutheran Church, and many I know blamed the Catholic Church. And our experince was from the seventies. Iím very glad you found Jesus and a joy filled life, as many of us did later in life. Our only difference is that no one I know spends exuberant amounts of time trying to discredit our Church of origin. For two reasons. No 1 is I and others find love, peace and joy in the Church we now attend, and would do NOTHING to take that away from them. Just as millions still find that love and peace at the Lutheran Church I wonít attend, thousands still find that love and peace at GC Churches. And if ALL Churches brainwash their attenders, God help us!  Many have been hurt, as you, but donít hold onto that bitterness. WHY?  What good does it do you or Gods people? You all can hold onto that, itís your choice. But to blame ECC or MD is very short sighted, and Iím sure so sad to our loving Father who through His word begs us to Love one another. I know MD, his family, and most of the pastors at ECC, and they are some of the most loving people I know. They love others to the extent they teach and reach out to very sensitive issues that many Churches dance around so as not to ruffle feathers. Did all except Jesus loving teaching? NO, and what they did to Him is very similar to what many do to our Churchesand leaders today.  I know I will get chastised for saying this, but friend, itís the simple truth. Your choice, and mine. And we both live with the consequences of our choices at no ones fault but our own if they are wrong. I only say this because to many are being hurt and some still live in the hurt
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Shamednomore
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« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2018, 08:55:39 am »

First of all, we are not friends.  And 2nd, I am not living in hurt.  I am telling my truth.  And the doctrine that damaged my spirit and led me away from my faith came from gc leaders-handed down to our church like bible.  Man they were intent on breaking the wills of the children.  The thing is I donít need you to validate my story.  You can deny the history of abuse in your church all you want, but that doesnít erase it.  (And yes spiritual abuse was written about in the Bible and when Christian leaders point people away from God and their faith, God doesnít take it lightly).  Your writing is dripping with condescension.  I donít expect to impact your thoughts in any way, and I wonít lose sleep over it.  Your journey is your journey.  But I will continue to tell the truth. 


SNM, Many experienced the same thing you did at different Churches. You blame a GC Church, I blamed the Lutheran Church, and many I know blamed the Catholic Church. And our experince was from the seventies. Iím very glad you found Jesus and a joy filled life, as many of us did later in life. Our only difference is that no one I know spends exuberant amounts of time trying to discredit our Church of origin. For two reasons. No 1 is I and others find love, peace and joy in the Church we now attend, and would do NOTHING to take that away from them. Just as millions still find that love and peace at the Lutheran Church I wonít attend, thousands still find that love and peace at GC Churches. And if ALL Churches brainwash their attenders, God help us!  Many have been hurt, as you, but donít hold onto that bitterness. WHY?  What good does it do you or Gods people? You all can hold onto that, itís your choice. But to blame ECC or MD is very short sighted, and Iím sure so sad to our loving Father who through His word begs us to Love one another. I know MD, his family, and most of the pastors at ECC, and they are some of the most loving people I know. They love others to the extent they teach and reach out to very sensitive issues that many Churches dance around so as not to ruffle feathers. Did all except Jesus loving teaching? NO, and what they did to Him is very similar to what many do to our Churchesand leaders today.  I know I will get chastised for saying this, but friend, itís the simple truth. Your choice, and mine. And we both live with the consequences of our choices at no ones fault but our own if they are wrong. I only say this because to many are being hurt and some still live in the hurt

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Wrestling
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2018, 08:59:50 am »

ShamedNoMore said:
Quote
It is also very important for me to know others just like me that left gc but Are STILL Christians.  WE DIDNT ABANDON OUR FAITH.  God isnít found ONLY in a gc Church, god is with Christians wherever they go.  God can have a deep relationship with a woman without speaking through her authority-He will speak directly to her!  I have forgiven the people from my past that hurt me and I hold no bitterness because they have asked for forgiveness and they no longer behave the same way.  Even if they hadnít asked my forgiveness, I now believe they were just trying to follow gc doctrine to save themselves.  They were manipulated and brainwashed as well

SNM,  I hope you donít have to go to the end of your rope to find the spirit of peace and love through Jesus. It is so awesome, and once you have Him, no one can separate you. I will pray you find that peace, as I have.

GreenTruth, the audacity of this response astounds me. Did you read what she said? Did you seek to understand? Itís kind and lovely to pray peace for her, but what she is saying is that she rejoices in the truth of the love of Jesus even still! My goodness. This is very shocking to me. I am so sorry you also had a bad church experience. But that doesnít invalidate SNMís experience at the church which you say brought you healing. Iím glad you found healing at a GC church. But that doesnít mean they havenít hurt a lot of people along the way just as your Lutheran Church did.
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Greentruth
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« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2018, 09:19:47 am »

ShamedNoMore said:
Quote
It is also very important for me to know others just like me that left gc but Are STILL Christians.  WE DIDNT ABANDON OUR FAITH.  God isnít found ONLY in a gc Church, god is with Christians wherever they go.  God can have a deep relationship with a woman without speaking through her authority-He will speak directly to her!  I have forgiven the people from my past that hurt me and I hold no bitterness because they have asked for forgiveness and they no longer behave the same way.  Even if they hadnít asked my forgiveness, I now believe they were just trying to follow gc doctrine to save themselves.  They were manipulated and brainwashed as well

SNM,  I hope you donít have to go to the end of your rope to find the spirit of peace and love through Jesus. It is so awesome, and once you have Him, no one can separate you. I will pray you find that peace, as I have.

GreenTruth, the audacity of this response astounds me. Did you read what she said? Did you seek to understand? Itís kind and lovely to pray peace for her, but what she is saying is that she rejoices in the truth of the love of Jesus even still! My goodness. This is very shocking to me. I am so sorry you also had a bad church experience. But that doesnít invalidate SNMís experience at the church which you say brought you healing. Iím glad you found healing at a GC church. But that doesnít mean they havenít hurt a lot of people along the way just as your Lutheran Church did.

I could say the same to you. The audacity to distort the truth thousands have lived at ECC. Some have experienced hurt at ECC in the SAME manner as proposed here, yet as a saved Christian we can discern the cause from the Church, our parents and ourselves without seeking to destroy one element of the whole truth. There is a strength of bitterness on this form I have never seen anywhere. It comes through loud and clear, trust me. This form will turn a few away from ECC, and Church as a whole, but most are just seriously grieved at the assault and damage they see being done to their Church.  If this is your goal, you are succeeding, sadly.
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araignee19
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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2018, 09:59:39 am »

Shamednomore, you might consider posting your story in a new thread. I think it will be buried here and not seen as clearly as it should be. It is worthy of its own topic where it is at the top and can't be buried by accusations of bitterness and threadjacking.
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« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2018, 10:01:22 am »

Shamed no more, thank you for sharing.  I completely understand what you are saying. 


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« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2018, 10:13:12 am »


I could say the same to you. The audacity to distort the truth thousands have lived at ECC. Some have experienced hurt at ECC in the SAME manner as proposed here, yet as a saved Christian we can discern the cause from the Church, our parents and ourselves without seeking to destroy one element of the whole truth. There is a strength of bitterness on this form I have never seen anywhere. It comes through loud and clear, trust me. This form will turn a few away from ECC, and Church as a whole, but most are just seriously grieved at the assault and damage they see being done to their Church.  If this is your goal, you are succeeding, sadly.


I will freely admit that there are many people, primarily men, who thrive in the GCx environment. For whatever reason, the top-down militaristic chain of command really works for them. For woman and children, however, it can be a nightmare (depending on how closely individual family units adhere to the churchís teachings). Like Shamednomore (thanks so much for your sharing your experiences <3), I had an intensive GCx upbringing, though much different because of my gender. Boys are taught from a young age that they are the voice of God on earth and are raised to be leaders. Of course there is plenty of shaming, shunning, and snitching that go on to whip you into GCxís ideal of masculinity. However, some really embrace this role and, I think, sincerely do well in the church.

Iíve heard enough horror stories from women in GCx (e.g. the present MD situation, etc.) to know that women have it much worse. I find it hard to imagine that any woman ďhappilyĒ living the GCx lifestyle could truly be mentally well. But maybe there are women out there who really do enjoy being submissive to their husbands, being sexually available 24/7, and cranking out kids as fast as their bodies will allow.  
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 10:38:37 am by G_Prince » Logged

Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
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