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Author Topic: Faithwalkers 2010 (Or Faithwalkaz, as I like to call it)  (Read 56540 times)
wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2011, 04:22:56 pm »

You are correct, that many messages are about our response to God's love for us. My opinion -- I would say that is the primary inspiration for our works -- a love response to what God has done for us. We all agree that our works do not gain God's grace nor his favor. But our efforts to love others is at the core of Jesus' teaching, and James reminds us to love not just with words, but with actions.

The problem as I see it isn't the teachings on what we should do in order to love one another.  The problem when there is forced and peer pressure to do so.  The leaders and the other "brothers and sisters" trying to force others to do what they deem best.  Trying to make others in their image - or cookie cutter Christians.  Doing to others what the Holy Spirit's job is to do.  Growth and change.  It isn't our our responsibility to change people.  Why else so many teachings of trivial things such as removing hats or closing eyes when praying? 
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2011, 06:10:23 pm »

Linda, I heard my own pastor-elders defend numerous doctrinal errors by Jim McCotter on the basis that "Jim is principally an evangelist, not a theologian."  

What kind of a stupid excuse is that for tolerating the spreading of unsound teaching from the pulpit to numerous congregations?  

GC's own authority structure appears to prevent them correcting unsound teaching by high-ranking leaders.  Pride seems to prevent them from correcting lower-ranking conference speakers.
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Cossette729
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« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2011, 07:55:18 pm »

In Matthew 12, Jesus said, "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

Our Lord taught that when people speak--and especially when they speak without thinking--they are revealing their true CHARACTER.  I find it odd, then, to teach that the only qualification for leadership is to be a man of good character while excusing those who preach cruel or false things.
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DrSam
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« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2011, 02:53:41 pm »

I did not defend Rick's comment. Rather, the poster who jumped to allegations of domestic, physical violence and asking about abuse "running rampant" throughout the movement needed to be challenged.

As a pastor who probably counsels married couples, I'm surprised that you would assume "domestic abuse" would mean physical violence.  Also, it's true that verbal abuse can often lead to physical violence, but no one accused Rick of doing that.  Ever.   In a sermon by Mark Darling YEARS ago, I remember him saying how evil sarcasm is and how it "cuts like a knife".  It's not a joke to say someone is grumpy all the time and has been for 40 years, or that someone is a total slob.

Neva has lovingly typed out all of Rick's messages and talks on GCNWDads, she has birthed (how many, 8?) children, raised them (I would say quite well, minus the GC stuff) to adulthood, homeschooled all of them, no doubt cooked, cleaned, all the while guarding the home fort while Rick travels around giving parenting talks and dragging up their roots to plant churches in god-forsaken lands.  Honestly?  I think Neva is a saint and always have.  I think Rick is a guy that means well, but has gotten carried away in the idealism of his mind (manly men, and Normandy, and cowboys, and soldiers, loyalty, yadda yadda).   And I didn't find it humorous, what he said.

Also, I am quite aware that GC pastors are not professional speakers.  This has come up before.  Seminary training helps you with public speaking!  These men need to learn how to say what they mean to say, in ways that are truthful, kind, and respectful of the platform they believe God has given them.

Maybe Rick had an off day.  Maybe Rick is getting old and a bit senile.  Maybe he's not got the best social skills.  I don't know.  I don't think he's probably a mean guy at heart.  But I do think his bar is high-- too high.  And he should be kissing Neva's feet, because she has lived to be his helpmeet (whether or not I agree with her views) and has praised him repeatedly in all of her talks.  

I'm glad they took the talk down.  I hope it was his idea.  I hope she took it lightly and with a grain of salt.  I hope that they have a happy marriage.  

I think most of us here wish all of the leaders and members of GC happiness and blessings.   As we've said before, we LOVE the people of GC.  That said, people we love can make grave mistakes.  False, unthought out, careless teaching is bad and for the level of experience these men have, pretty inexcusable.  Forgiveable, of course, but surprising.  

I do sometimes think the level of intensity, overspeaking, zeal, paranoia, delusions of grandeur these men display could be indicative of some deeper issues that probably could stand to be addressed through counseling, mentoring (outside the movement), and a nice, long vacation.

Agatha,

I just wanted to say that I love your spirit, balance, objectivity, humility, and compassion. I love it!

I have worked with Rick for some years in the past on various levels. I don't think any meanness was meant by him. I don't think Neva would have been offended. She's a tough farmer girl that walked out of the hospital a few hours after having a child with nurses chasing her. Their way of joking with each other has been sarcasm. That has been their style. Was it wise? Probably not. Deep down, Rick is a very good guy that is off some and needs to go back into farming for a couple of years to get perspective like Moses did.

God bless!
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:56:07 pm by DrSam » Logged
wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2011, 03:18:10 pm »

Yes, perspective is everything!    For those who don't know Rick his comments about his wife was offensive.  I can't imagine a wife that wouldn't take offense. 


I remember a dear friend telling me that Rick reproved a "brother" that was dying of cancer because he wasn't rejoicing or sharing his faith.  How obnoxious and shameful is that?! 
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DrSam
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« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2011, 03:46:59 pm »

Yes, perspective is everything!    For those who don't know Rick his comments about his wife was offensive.  I can't imagine a wife that wouldn't take offense. 


I remember a dear friend telling me that Rick reproved a "brother" that was dying of cancer because he wasn't rejoicing or sharing his faith.  How obnoxious and shameful is that?! 


That sounds bad, Wasted, but you were not there. If that truly happened then it is sad, but you ultimately do not know. You might have a distorted report you heard.
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2011, 04:16:24 pm »

I trust my friend who was in the room when Rick was exhorting the brother that was dying.......... 

I have no reason to believe this didn't happen. 
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DrSam
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« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2011, 06:20:20 pm »

I trust my friend who was in the room when Rick was exhorting the brother that was dying.......... 

I have no reason to believe this didn't happen. 

You may be right, Wasted... but still, you were not there. One thing I have learned from pastoring, counseling, being married, having children, is that you first give the benefit of doubt to a person when there is a dispute. Misunderstandings are plentiful and everyone perceives things differently. It is not wise to assume folks have bad hearts. Most don't. I've been with Rick visiting a couple who had a stillbirth. It was devastating and both Rick and I did our best to comfort that couple. I look back and see how we could have done a better job. The couple was never offended by our meager attempt to understand their plight. I'm glad I/we received grace from them.
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Curious
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« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2011, 06:48:53 pm »

Why do these boards always seem to go off on tangents with people trying to defend what they say? It turns off people that want to honestly discuss the subject at hand, in this case Faithwalkers 2010. It started out really well with some honest and thought provoking discussions that would be beneficial to share with current GC attenders and get their take on it but now it's more a matter of whether DrSam or wastedyearsthere has proved their point.
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Thoughtfully
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« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2011, 08:57:47 pm »

I agree with Curious. Let's get back to some honest and thought-provoking discussions.

I thought that the seminar by Robin Klapatch was pretty good. Anyone else listen to that one? I thought it stuck to it's description pretty well.

Seminar Description from the Faithwalkers website:

Make-Up Free Christianity -Robin Klapatch (for women only)
Ladies, do you desire real, lasting change in your life, in your walk with God?  If you're brave enough to step out from behind the "spiritual cosmetics" that we all use to hide our flaws and start living a genuine Christian life, this seminar will give you some encouragement and instruction on how to get started.
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DrSam
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« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 11:49:05 am »

The first talk by Brent Knox is what any parents wondering about GC should listen to.  I can't believe how cultish it is.  He speaks fondly of days (1976) sleeping on the floor of a condemned school building, eating two meals a day for conferences and meetings.  Then how hard it was to be in the group in the early days... missing sleep, working too hard, trying to study.  He explains all that difficulty away by thinking that he just hadn't prayed enough.  It's just sad.  I would be heartbroken if my kids went to college and ended up being crazy involved with a group like that.  I would be so sad if my kids instead of coming home for breaks, went across the country to sleep on a gym floor in a condemned building with a bunch of cult members.  This emphasis on "extreme costs" of following Christ is not healthy.  Yes, we should turn to God, but the stories he relates are just horribly sad.  Really, getting up at 5 on Fridays to deliver the church's newspaper, Today's Student?  How weird.  And then spending late nights with the group.  Just sickening to me.  These EARLY days are NOT something to be proud of.  They are the makings of a cult!

This guy needed boundaries then, and I'm wondering if he might not need some boundaries now.  I don't know because I don't know him, but his sermon certainly portrays the Christian walk as a painful, arduous battle, full of difficulties, hard work, and duty.  That's what discipleship to this group is all about.

Agatha,

I know I am late to this discussion but I saw your thoughts and perhaps I can add some perspective on it. I know you have a great and good heart!

I would not call the lifestyle as "cultish." I was there for lots of that. I don't know if you are a Gen-Xer or not. But I would imagine that those from the Gen-X generation would not totally understand the Baby Boomers who thrive on principles and causes. That was the generation of the Vietnam/Woodstock/Hippie-ness/Anarchy/Etc. era. The fact that we were frugal, lived on little, ate no banquet food, etc. was not that GC was "cultish" but rather that it was our own generational choice to live that way. "Back to Mother Earth", "Anti-polution", "Save the Planet", "Eat organic", etc. was all from the Baby Boomer generation plus activism thrown in.

No one in GC went hungry unless of their own choice and design. They may have gone hungry because they worked little or got by on little. I lived on 50 dollars a week. I still ate three square meals. I was poorer in Bible School where I ate one hot meal a day and lived on raw wheatgerm and powdered milk + one sandwich a day. My Bible School had no affiliation with GC. Christianity in those days prided itself in sacrifice a la George Muller. In early GC, I never owned a bed. I slept on a cot on the floor for years.  That was my choice and I was extremely happy doing that and more. So were the majority of many hardcore Christians of those days such as Jesus People that became Calvary Chapel, Campus Crusade for Christ, Operation Mobilization, New Tribes Missions, Inner-city ministries, Teen Challenge, and also seminary students. I value that part of my training in learning a spirit of deep sacrifice for Christ and at the same time being happy and content. I wish most Christians today had that. You can tell how narcissistic and soft their Christianity is.

I remember taking a team to U. of Illinois for a summer and none of us would trade the amazing miracles we saw everyday of God providing for us food, shelter, and souls who received Christ. We hardly knew where we were going to stay on a day by day basis. I would go out to talk to pastors every day and they graciously would let us stay in their chapels or Sunday school rooms at no charge. We felt we were doing things like George Muller did, seeing our Awesome God provide for us with no apparent options.

It is possible that some who were in that kind of ministry may have not liked it. Most thrived on it! It was not due to any "party doctrine." GC had plenty of defects but that was not one of them. All the leaders lived coluntary sacrificial lives also, unlike true cults. This reminds me of Mother Theresa. Her order makes even GC look extravagant. No one calls her religious order a cult. 

I just wanted to set the record straight while knowing that you may not have been there and that you have a good heart! Smiley


« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 11:59:00 am by DrSam » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2011, 01:59:49 pm »

I just wanted to point out that the other messages are online now. Also, listen to Neva and Mandy's message for wives and mothers. She directly references Rick's comments saying, "That was only a joke when he was talking about me being a sloppy person..I've probably had a dozen people ask me about that...and I've said, no that was supposed to be a joke and no I wasn't offended."
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2011, 05:03:30 pm »

Joke or no joke it was offensive.  Personally, I don't believe it was a joke or a very bad taste joke.  Doesn't GCC believe you shouldn't joke in this fashion?  Too often people get out of what they say but saying "I was just joking"  My kids do this as well!  Unbelievable. 
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nelliepooh
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« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2011, 08:52:47 pm »

I just wanted to point out that the other messages are online now. Also, listen to Neva and Mandy's message for wives and mothers. She directly references Rick's comments saying, "That was only a joke when he was talking about me being a sloppy person..I've probably had a dozen people ask me about that...and I've said, no that was supposed to be a joke and no I wasn't offended."
I think slobby was one of the least offensive things he said about her and she didn't say anything about the other comments he made about her.  He also said she shuts him out and doesn't want to talk and is grumpy all the time, I have never in my life heard anyone let alone a pastor in front of a congregation joke like that about their wife and if I did I would probably not go back because of the behavoir the pastor is modeling is sinful and if was only joking he should have said it.  Instead he asks God for forgiveness for what he says knowing it was wrong to say it at the same time he chooses to beliddle her.
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newcreature
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« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2011, 12:07:42 am »

I remember taking a team to U. of Illinois for a summer and none of us would trade the amazing miracles we saw everyday of God providing for us food, shelter, and souls who received Christ. We hardly knew where we were going to stay on a day by day basis. I would go out to talk to pastors every day and they graciously would let us stay in their chapels or Sunday school rooms at no charge. We felt we were doing things like George Muller did, seeing our Awesome God provide for us with no apparent options.

George Muller? Didn't you get the memo back then? We were sent out by Jim just like the disciples were sent out by Jesus. We were following Jim because he was following Paul. We were doing it better than all of those sub-par "para-church" organizations and "cemetery" students you listed. We were the second coming of the new testament church. We were the only committed Christians with Biblical apostles, and we were going to reach the world for Christ because no other Christians were doing it the right way.

l guess all my "dumpster diving" and emulating all my senior apostles and junior apostles wasn't enough. It was pretty humiliating when store employees caught us red-handed (and slimy and smelly as well) inside their dumpsters like filthy scavangers. But we were undeterred and still took a pathetic pride in seeing who could find the freshest discarded bread and produce. After all, "We were sacrificing for Jesus, brother!" I cringe when I look back on what was proudly exalted as "True Discipleship."

We were supposed to double every year for the past 40 years according to the way 2 Timothy 2:2 was taught back then. That means by today one trillion people should have been reached by GCI alone since 1970. Why did all that doctrine - along with head coverings, home births, and Slick 50 - get yanked from the GCI Book of Government? After all, we were "rightly" dividing the word of God and "wrongly" called a cult, right? And where is that Book of Government anyway?

Ah yes, "the good old days."

The words of the Preacher, the Son of David, King in Jerusalem, said this: "Do not say, 'Why is it that the former days were better than these?' For it is not from wisdom when you ask about this." - Ecclesiastes 7:10
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LucyB
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« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2011, 08:55:19 am »

I don't think any meanness was meant by him. I don't think Neva would have been offended.
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I am surprised that a psychologist would interpret his statements and her response in this way. His statements were just plain mean, and her response revealed an unhealthy lack of boundaries.

I just wanted to point out that the other messages are online now. Also, listen to Neva and Mandy's message for wives and mothers. She directly references Rick's comments saying, "That was only a joke when he was talking about me being a sloppy person..I've probably had a dozen people ask me about that...and I've said, no that was supposed to be a joke and no I wasn't offended."

Her response does not diminish the impact his hurtful word, it makes them more alarming.  It was not a joke, and she should have been offended. An emotionally healthy person would not tolerate this behavior.
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DrSam
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« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2011, 10:36:47 am »

I remember taking a team to U. of Illinois for a summer and none of us would trade the amazing miracles we saw everyday of God providing for us food, shelter, and souls who received Christ. We hardly knew where we were going to stay on a day by day basis. I would go out to talk to pastors every day and they graciously would let us stay in their chapels or Sunday school rooms at no charge. We felt we were doing things like George Muller did, seeing our Awesome God provide for us with no apparent options.

George Muller? Didn't you get the memo back then? We were sent out by Jim just like the disciples were sent out by Jesus. We were following Jim because he was following Paul. We were doing it better than all of those sub-par "para-church" organizations and "cemetery" students you listed. We were the second coming of the new testament church. We were the only committed Christians with Biblical apostles, and we were going to reach the world for Christ because no other Christians were doing it the right way.

l guess all my "dumpster diving" and emulating all my senior apostles and junior apostles wasn't enough. It was pretty humiliating when store employees caught us red-handed (and slimy and smelly as well) inside their dumpsters like filthy scavangers. But we were undeterred and still took a pathetic pride in seeing who could find the freshest discarded bread and produce. After all, "We were sacrificing for Jesus, brother!" I cringe when I look back on what was proudly exalted as "True Discipleship."

We were supposed to double every year for the past 40 years according to the way 2 Timothy 2:2 was taught back then. That means by today one trillion people should have been reached by GCI alone since 1970. Why did all that doctrine - along with head coverings, home births, and Slick 50 - get yanked from the GCI Book of Government? After all, we were "rightly" dividing the word of God and "wrongly" called a cult, right? And where is that Book of Government anyway?

Ah yes, "the good old days."

The words of the Preacher, the Son of David, King in Jerusalem, said this: "Do not say, 'Why is it that the former days were better than these?' For it is not from wisdom when you ask about this." - Ecclesiastes 7:10

NewCreature,

I understand. I did not say GC is sparkling clean. I'm just saying that I was not emotionally devastated by voluntarily and happily sacrificing for God. No one was coerced and neither was it official to do things like dumpster diving. The teams and groups I led never ever did such. If anyone ever was coerced, I would have been the first to protest. I also never said that I sanction every word from Jim. For me and many others, we gladly sacrificed... voluntarily. Maybe your situation was unfortunate and different.
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DrSam
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« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2011, 10:42:49 am »

I don't think any meanness was meant by him. I don't think Neva would have been offended.
[/b][/color][/size]

I am surprised that a psychologist would interpret his statements and her response in this way. His statements were just plain mean, and her response revealed an unhealthy lack of boundaries.

I just wanted to point out that the other messages are online now. Also, listen to Neva and Mandy's message for wives and mothers. She directly references Rick's comments saying, "That was only a joke when he was talking about me being a sloppy person..I've probably had a dozen people ask me about that...and I've said, no that was supposed to be a joke and no I wasn't offended."

Her response does not diminish the impact his hurtful word, it makes them more alarming.  It was not a joke, and she should have been offended. An emotionally healthy person would not tolerate this behavior.

Lucy,

With all due respect, I would say to you to get a grip. I never said that it was the wisest thing on Rick's part. Again, as a person that has known Rick quite well, worked with him, and where we pointed out to each other our character flaws, I understand the relationship that Rick and Neva have had and their style of communicating with each other. I don't think Neva was offended and Rick did not mean malice. Wise? No. Malice? Nope. Is Rick perfect? Absolutely not! You are entitled to grace also. Also, it has nothing to do with my psychology credentials. Behavioral professionals need to say the truth to people. That is the truth as I see it.
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LucyB
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« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2011, 11:02:31 am »




With all due respect, I would say to you to get a grip.

Huh Isn't that an paradox?
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2011, 11:05:01 am »

Sarcasm I now see to be, in general, the language of the devil; for which reason I have long since as good as renounced it.
Thomas Carlyle

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