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Author Topic: The Hypocritical Actions of Mark Bowen  (Read 12191 times)
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« Reply #120 on: July 19, 2018, 03:24:57 pm »

What does that have to do with anything? You are an incredibly sick individual.


That independent counsel did not supply anything of substance. They didn't even talk to Mark Darling to hear his side of the story.... And then they put out a fake weak report. Fake news.

Besides that, were they even believers to be investigating something like that.

Do not follow G Prince. He doesn't even follow what the Scriptures says. He is following lies in his life.

I'm going to try one last time to explain this to you.

Joan Harris was hired by Evergreen to investigate the allegations against Mark Darling. Over the course of about two months she met with many people, including myself. During my meeting with her, she indicated that her last meeting would be with Mark Darling. I have no knowledge of whether that meeting actually took place, but if it did not that was Mark's choice.  When she completed her investigation, she submitted a report to Evergreen's Board of Trustees. After reading the report from Ms. Harris, the Board wrote up the report that someone linked to on this forum. Yes, the Board's report is vague and lacking details. This grieves many of us. However, the Board did determine that the information in Ms. Harris' report was sufficient to rescind Mark Darling's ordination and issue the statement confirming the validity of Suzanne's  (and others) allegations regarding Mark meeting with them privately and having inappropriate conversations of a sexual nature. They also confirmed that Suzanne (and two other women) had brought these issues to Mark Bowen in (or prior to) 2001.

In summary, aside from Ms. Harris and the Board of Trustees, none of us have access to all of the information. of course, you are free to choose whose story you wish to believe, but keep in mind that the people who have a lot more information than you or I decided that Mark Darling was guilty of at least some of the allegations put forth.

Was Joan Harris a believer?
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Barb
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« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2018, 03:25:03 pm »

 I really have no idea of Joan’s spiritual state. She was hired by Evergreen, maybe you should ask them. Also, curious if your God is limited to only working through believers? My God, the God of the Bible, is not limited in any way.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #122 on: July 19, 2018, 03:28:40 pm »

I really have no idea of Joan’s spiritual state. She was hired by Evergreen, maybe you should ask them. Also, curious if your God is limited to only working through believers? My God, the God of the Bible, is not limited in any way.

No, but God has given instructions about who should judge things inside of the church. But yes, he can use Pharaoh, and He even used Potiphar's wife.
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« Reply #123 on: July 19, 2018, 06:34:55 pm »

Yes, I was actually thinking of the irony that participating on this forum exposes oneself to spiritual abuse.  The good thing is that I can recognize it now and do not let it affect me personally, other than it angers me that someone would use the name of God to degrade other people.  It's so gross. 

But this type of superior prideful attitude is a landmark of GCC leaders.  They even speak with a tone of authority in their teachings, like "everything I have to tell you is very serious and very holy and it is important."  I'm really tired of these self-righteous, self-important people (mostly men in GCC) who lord their authority over others while failing to meet the requirements for qualifications for an elder in their character and behavior.   

That was the whole point of this thread.  That Mark Bowen should not be able to exercise authority over anyone while he is in a state of unrepentance for his failure to hold his fellow "important" pastor accountable while smooshing the "little people" under his heel.  Jesus had a lot to say about that in Matt 23.  Matt 23 addresses hypocrites.  I just hope that more people are able to see through him.

To be clear, I don't wish for his destruction as an individual or anything.  I just think he has done such damage and shown such poor judgement and hypocrisy that he needs to be removed from a position of leadership.  I realize in GCC losing ordination is almost like death since pastors have so much power and status. So that's another entire problem, the power structure of GCC.  But that aside, Mark Bowen in particular needs to be removed from the pastorship.



Boy catching up on all this activity is making me physically sick...
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« Reply #124 on: July 19, 2018, 07:02:52 pm »

I really have no idea of Joan’s spiritual state. She was hired by Evergreen, maybe you should ask them. Also, curious if your God is limited to only working through believers? My God, the God of the Bible, is not limited in any way.

No, but God has given instructions about who should judge things inside of the church. But yes, he can use Pharaoh, and He even used Potiphar's wife.
As far as I can tell, Joan investigated, but it was the board of trustees that were the judges.  The other pastors of ECC - at least publicly - believe he is guilty, so if anything, believing he is innocent is the bigger leap.

As to the "only a Christian can judge matters" idea, it's very clear that Christians are under secular authority.  Luke 12:57-59 states that Christians should do their best to work out issues before being hauled into secular court - something that the ECC pastors involved back in the day should have probably paid more attention to:

57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”
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PietWowo
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« Reply #125 on: July 19, 2018, 07:16:14 pm »

I really have no idea of Joan’s spiritual state. She was hired by Evergreen, maybe you should ask them. Also, curious if your God is limited to only working through believers? My God, the God of the Bible, is not limited in any way.

No, but God has given instructions about who should judge things inside of the church. But yes, he can use Pharaoh, and He even used Potiphar's wife.
As far as I can tell, Joan investigated, but it was the board of trustees that were the judges.  The other pastors of ECC - at least publicly - believe he is guilty, so if anything, believing he is innocent is the bigger leap.

As to the "only a Christian can judge matters" idea, it's very clear that Christians are under secular authority.  Luke 12:57-59 states that Christians should do their best to work out issues before being hauled into secular court - something that the ECC pastors involved back in the day should have probably paid more attention to:

57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

I'm talking about inside the church.... See I Cor. 6. (I believe, could be 5 too)
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« Reply #126 on: July 19, 2018, 07:36:33 pm »

No, but God has given instructions about who should judge things inside of the church. But yes, he can use Pharaoh, and He even used Potiphar's wife.
As far as I can tell, Joan investigated, but it was the board of trustees that were the judges.  The other pastors of ECC - at least publicly - believe he is guilty, so if anything, believing he is innocent is the bigger leap.

As to the "only a Christian can judge matters" idea, it's very clear that Christians are under secular authority.  Luke 12:57-59 states that Christians should do their best to work out issues before being hauled into secular court - something that the ECC pastors involved back in the day should have probably paid more attention to:

57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

I'm talking about inside the church.... See I Cor. 6. (I believe, could be 5 too)
And what happens when there is no justice found inside the church?
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PietWowo
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« Reply #127 on: July 19, 2018, 08:22:57 pm »

No, but God has given instructions about who should judge things inside of the church. But yes, he can use Pharaoh, and He even used Potiphar's wife.
As far as I can tell, Joan investigated, but it was the board of trustees that were the judges.  The other pastors of ECC - at least publicly - believe he is guilty, so if anything, believing he is innocent is the bigger leap.

As to the "only a Christian can judge matters" idea, it's very clear that Christians are under secular authority.  Luke 12:57-59 states that Christians should do their best to work out issues before being hauled into secular court - something that the ECC pastors involved back in the day should have probably paid more attention to:

57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

I'm talking about inside the church.... See I Cor. 6. (I believe, could be 5 too)
And what happens when there is no justice found inside the church?

Very good question. The Bible says, then it is better to be wronged, then bring it in front of the unbelievers See I Cor. 6:6. It would be good to read that first half of the chapter to see the context.

But in the case of Evergreen, there is another thing, that one could do... One is approach the GCC headquarters about it. Also, you can talk with other pastors afterwards from other churches with believers. They can help you approach that pastor in Evergreen. You can probably work with a Christian attorney too. So, there is a lot of things that you can do. I am not saying that you would have to keep it within GCC...  (BTW, that's one clue right there that GCC is not a cult, because they work together with other Christian organizations. Cults wouldn't do that. But I'm getting off track. But I hope that answers your question.

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« Reply #128 on: July 20, 2018, 06:13:46 am »

No, but God has given instructions about who should judge things inside of the church. But yes, he can use Pharaoh, and He even used Potiphar's wife.
As far as I can tell, Joan investigated, but it was the board of trustees that were the judges.  The other pastors of ECC - at least publicly - believe he is guilty, so if anything, believing he is innocent is the bigger leap.

As to the "only a Christian can judge matters" idea, it's very clear that Christians are under secular authority.  Luke 12:57-59 states that Christians should do their best to work out issues before being hauled into secular court - something that the ECC pastors involved back in the day should have probably paid more attention to:

57 “And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59 I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the very last penny.”

I'm talking about inside the church.... See I Cor. 6. (I believe, could be 5 too)
And what happens when there is no justice found inside the church?

Very good question. The Bible says, then it is better to be wronged, then bring it in front of the unbelievers See I Cor. 6:6. It would be good to read that first half of the chapter to see the context.

1 Corinthians chapter 6 is an abused section of scripture.  It is not a get-out-of-jail-free section where I get to do whatever wrong I want to another believer because I don't need to fear them taking me to court.  Rather, this passage calls both parties to remember that we are brothers and sisters and figure out our differences before it becomes so serious that court is required.  In small matters it may indeed be better as verse 7 says to know that one is wronged and wait until Heaven for justice, but I do not believe Paul is indicating what you are claiming that Christians should be put through an endless gauntlet of disinterested or possibly complicit church leaders (see for example the decades-long toleration of abuse in the Catholic church) before giving up.  Hopefully you are not suggesting that it is OK with you that non-believers are better treated by the church (the Luke 12 passage I quoted where Jesus warns the church to deal with things before the government gets involved) than believers who apparently should be content with no justice?

See 1 Cor 6:8-10 "8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."  God's standard of conduct is higher for all believers.  Persisting in unrepentant sin (e.g. many years of abuse and then the toleration and coverup by other church leaders) puts one in jeopardy of not entering the kingdom of God.  This passage does NOT apply to one who sinned and repented (e.g. Suzanne's sexual history prior to the allegations of abuse).

But in the case of Evergreen, there is another thing, that one could do... One is approach the GCC headquarters about it. Also, you can talk with other pastors afterwards from other churches with believers. They can help you approach that pastor in Evergreen. You can probably work with a Christian attorney too. So, there is a lot of things that you can do. I am not saying that you would have to keep it within GCC...  (BTW, that's one clue right there that GCC is not a cult, because they work together with other Christian organizations. Cults wouldn't do that. But I'm getting off track. But I hope that answers your question.
But in the case of Evergreen, Suzanne and others did follow the process of going to the person in question and then bringing in other people.  I'm unaware of any pending litigation, which means 1 Cor 6 was not violated, and the BOT (who you hopefully agree are believers) were the judges, so while this case needed a public threat to get some traction, it has been handled within the church.  If the biblical process started by Suzanne had been followed 17 years ago by the ECC pastors - trying in good faith to resolve the issue, this wouldn't have grown into the public spectacle that it has become.

Revelation 2:5 is spoken to the church in Ephesus who had forsaken their first love.  Christ's response is thus:  "Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."

Churches do not get a free pass because they are a church and do some good stuff.  Jesus holds churches to a higher standard than the rest of the world, and defective (and ineffective) churches are in danger of having their lampstand removed.  I am encouraged that Evergreen did take some action, and made a judgment that brought at least some justice. 

I don't desire the destruction of any church, but trying to build walls around bad theology and defective churches using misinterpreted scripture does not help the Gospel.  Micah 6:8 shows what God wants from the church:

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
    And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly[a] with your God.

Any church trying to gatekeep how people seek to find justice is a poor church, indeed.
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