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Author Topic: The Hypocritical Actions of Mark Bowen  (Read 10339 times)
Linda
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« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2018, 03:23:33 pm »

Mango, dear,

I was having a little fun with Wrestling’s idea.

If you read further, you will note that my solution was for ECC members to speak up.

Also, I never called anyone deranged so don’t put words in my mouth.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 03:27:43 pm by Linda » Logged

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G_Prince
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« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2018, 04:03:25 pm »



My two cents: I think it’s time to ignore PietWowo. They are just stirring up nonsense. This makes it all cloudier.

It's the second time he's tried to slut shame the victims (see the spanking thread). I think a ban is in order.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Linda
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« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2018, 04:18:08 pm »

Agree, GP, I wanted to clarify my statement regarding pittwowo's boorish comment that involved victim blaming lest someone misunderstand my point.

It is not borderline adultery for the victim when a man in position of authority or power over her hugs her inappropriately.

In this case, Suzanne was a young believer (this started when she was 19) and getting counsel from MD. This is not an even playing field. MD was the counselor. Not only that, he was her pastor. HE WAS IN A POSITION OF SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER HER.

Not to be missed, MD was also responsible for determining whether or not her fiancé/husband would be "recognized" as a pastor or get the gig at the new church plant. So, HE WAS IN A POSITION OF POWER OVER HER FAMILY'S LIVELIHOOD.

There was a double power differential happening. A spiritual one and an employment one.

Therefore, no one has the right to ask:

1) Why did she get in the car with him?
2) Why did she go on walks with him?
3) Why did she let him hug her?
4) Why didn't she tell someone sooner?

The questions that needs to be asked and answered are:
1) Why did ECC keep this abuse hidden?
2) Why did ECC not follow through with the planned corrective steps?
3) How dare they preach "sermons" calling this situation "unfair" and "unjust" when they knew there was truth to the accusations and admit that they (the elders) dropped the ball?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 04:27:16 pm by Linda » Logged

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PietWowo
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2018, 05:10:55 pm »

Just after calling Pietwowo deranged, you all have a Spartacus moment just to show everyone you can one-up him on the unhinged scale. Go ahead show up with your pics. Love to see you there.

Haven't upped anything.... Haven't even responded to what I said....
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OneOfMany
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« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2018, 06:06:41 pm »

Linda that is a very good explanation of the power imbalance that makes Darlings behavior reprehensible. I do hope the members of Evergreen speak up so they don't find themselves on the receiving end of this kind of abuse.
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Huldah
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« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2018, 07:22:31 pm »

So Linda, Hulda, and others. Any good suggestions on where to go from here? How can pressure be used to bring Bowen and others to account?

I believe we're doing it. Post the truth. Use keywords and titles that will show up in a search engine. Trust that those who are genuinely searching for the truth will find this site and read it.

That isn't meant to discourage anyone who wants to expand their ministry beyond this forum. It's just that I, personally, believe that this forum is where I can be most useful to people who have left GC, who are considering leaving, or who have loved ones there.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2018, 07:54:32 pm »

Agree, GP, I wanted to clarify my statement regarding pittwowo's boorish comment that involved victim blaming lest someone misunderstand my point.

It is not borderline adultery for the victim when a man in position of authority or power over her hugs her inappropriately.

In this case, Suzanne was a young believer (this started when she was 19) and getting counsel from MD. This is not an even playing field. MD was the counselor. Not only that, he was her pastor. HE WAS IN A POSITION OF SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER HER.

Not to be missed, MD was also responsible for determining whether or not her fiancé/husband would be "recognized" as a pastor or get the gig at the new church plant. So, HE WAS IN A POSITION OF POWER OVER HER FAMILY'S LIVELIHOOD.

There was a double power differential happening. A spiritual one and an employment one.

Therefore, no one has the right to ask:

1) Why did she get in the car with him?
2) Why did she go on walks with him?
3) Why did she let him hug her?
4) Why didn't she tell someone sooner?

The questions that needs to be asked and answered are:
1) Why did ECC keep this abuse hidden?
2) Why did ECC not follow through with the planned corrective steps?
3) How dare they preach "sermons" calling this situation "unfair" and "unjust" when they knew there was truth to the accusations and admit that they (the elders) dropped the ball?


But you can ask her why she committed fornication, when the Scriptures is very clear about that.... I Thess. 4. 

BTW, the only thing that has been confirmed by any sort of authority (investigation) is that Mark was inappropriate (whatever that means) to her. And even there I have to really see the context to even come to that conclusion and I need to hear Mark's side....

So, I'm not sure why there are several people here, who are so quick to judge Mark, but so slow to discern what happened with Scout. Out of her own mouth, she admitted that she committed fornication.... That's the only thing specific I have learned. Besides that, when it happened one time, why did she continue to go back??? I don't believe she did. I think the whole thing is either blown way out of proportion or made up.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2018, 08:21:37 pm »




But you can ask her why she committed fornication, when the Scriptures is very clear about that.... I Thess. 4. 

BTW, the only thing that has been confirmed by any sort of authority (investigation) is that Mark was inappropriate (whatever that means) to her. And even there I have to really see the context to even come to that conclusion and I need to hear Mark's side....

So, I'm not sure why there are several people here, who are so quick to judge Mark, but so slow to discern what happened with Scout. Out of her own mouth, she admitted that she committed fornication.... That's the only thing specific I have learned. Besides that, when it happened one time, why did she continue to go back??? I don't believe she did. I think the whole thing is either blown way out of proportion or made up.

I have never heard this before. Please provide evidence (a quote and documentation).

Regardless, you are suggesting that sexual abuse by a pastor is okay if the woman is a "fornicator." Sadly I don't think you understand how immoral that is.
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Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Huldah
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« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2018, 08:43:38 pm »

BTW, the only thing that has been confirmed by any sort of authority (investigation) is that Mark was inappropriate (whatever that means) to her. And even there I have to really see the context to even come to that conclusion and I need to hear Mark's side....

So why are you here? We don't have Mark's side. If you want his side, call him up. Email him. Ask him to explain what really happened. Talk to Mark Bowen as well. What did he know and when did he know it? Then decide for yourself whether you believe he's lying or telling the truth. If you really want to know what he says for himself, that is. I'm not convinced you're here for information. Your posts have the ring of someone who's really just angry and looking to avenge his old friend by humiliating the accuser.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:46:27 pm by Huldah » Logged
OneOfMany
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« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2018, 08:57:08 pm »




But you can ask her why she committed fornication, when the Scriptures is very clear about that.... I Thess. 4. 




You really seem to like the word fornication! Why is that?

It is none of your friggin business what other people do.

You are a troll. This forum is for those who have left GCM churches, it is not for Darling supporters. Maybe you should contribute to the new Mark Darling website. You are abusive. It seems to be your lifestyle. Get therapy and learn how to treat people!
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 09:07:33 pm »

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR A PASTOR IN A COUNSELING RELATIONSHIP TO HAVE ANY PHYSICAL SEXUAL CONTACT WITH A COUNSELEE.  At least in the state of WI.  This would include hands on thighs and erection-pressing hugs. 

I just want to reiterate that because relationships and boundaries can feel blurred in a church setting (are we friends, brothers/sisters, etc?) but people should be aware that THE PASTOR is the one responsible for maintaining appropriate boundaries in a relationship.  Legally.  And ethically.  And morally.

I realize that some people on this thread are not concerned with clergy abuse (and seem to defend it) so I want to remind the reasonable people who might read this that these kinds of actions are NEVER OKAY and are the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PASTOR.  There are no questions for the counselees/church members/patients.  This also pertains to other counseling type relationships.  This is really a sacred trust that we put in pastors/counselors/therapists and any professional (or person with a title) who acts in an ethical manner should not violate that trust in any way, shape, or form.  Just so anyone who seeks help understands what the expectations are and are never blamed for the evil actions of another.



Agree, GP, I wanted to clarify my statement regarding pittwowo's boorish comment that involved victim blaming lest someone misunderstand my point.

It is not borderline adultery for the victim when a man in position of authority or power over her hugs her inappropriately.

In this case, Suzanne was a young believer (this started when she was 19) and getting counsel from MD. This is not an even playing field. MD was the counselor. Not only that, he was her pastor. HE WAS IN A POSITION OF SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER HER.

Not to be missed, MD was also responsible for determining whether or not her fiancé/husband would be "recognized" as a pastor or get the gig at the new church plant. So, HE WAS IN A POSITION OF POWER OVER HER FAMILY'S LIVELIHOOD.

There was a double power differential happening. A spiritual one and an employment one.

Therefore, no one has the right to ask:

1) Why did she get in the car with him?
2) Why did she go on walks with him?
3) Why did she let him hug her?
4) Why didn't she tell someone sooner?

The questions that needs to be asked and answered are:
1) Why did ECC keep this abuse hidden?
2) Why did ECC not follow through with the planned corrective steps?
3) How dare they preach "sermons" calling this situation "unfair" and "unjust" when they knew there was truth to the accusations and admit that they (the elders) dropped the ball?

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PietWowo
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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 09:17:31 pm »




But you can ask her why she committed fornication, when the Scriptures is very clear about that.... I Thess. 4. 

BTW, the only thing that has been confirmed by any sort of authority (investigation) is that Mark was inappropriate (whatever that means) to her. And even there I have to really see the context to even come to that conclusion and I need to hear Mark's side....

So, I'm not sure why there are several people here, who are so quick to judge Mark, but so slow to discern what happened with Scout. Out of her own mouth, she admitted that she committed fornication.... That's the only thing specific I have learned. Besides that, when it happened one time, why did she continue to go back??? I don't believe she did. I think the whole thing is either blown way out of proportion or made up.

I have never heard this before. Please provide evidence (a quote and documentation).

Regardless, you are suggesting that sexual abuse by a pastor is okay if the woman is a "fornicator." Sadly I don't think you understand how immoral that is.


She had a boyfriend, she was not married, and according to her Mark Darling asked her about her favourite positions and what she sounded like during an orgasm. That would be a totally irrelevant question if she wasn't having sex... So, she had sex as a single woman. Thus that is fornication.

If she hadn't that question would be like: "what gun did you use to rob the store?"  If I said that someone asked me what gun I used to rob a store, and felt that was too personal of information to share, I'm implying that I robbed a store with a gun.

No, it's not correct for any sexual abuse to happen if the woman is fornicating or not.... I never said that. I said that I'm not convinced that this what she described happened. Even in the report, it says that much in unsubstantiated.

But if I were to believe what you believe, how can I say something is wrong, because you have no standard of right or wrong.... So, your own words contradict yourself, unless you can show me an objective standard as to what is right or wrong... I know I have One... the Bible.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 09:23:40 pm by PietWowo » Logged
PietWowo
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« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 09:21:15 pm »

BTW, the only thing that has been confirmed by any sort of authority (investigation) is that Mark was inappropriate (whatever that means) to her. And even there I have to really see the context to even come to that conclusion and I need to hear Mark's side....

So why are you here? We don't have Mark's side. If you want his side, call him up. Email him. Ask him to explain what really happened. Talk to Mark Bowen as well. What did he know and when did he know it? Then decide for yourself whether you believe he's lying or telling the truth. If you really want to know what he says for himself, that is. I'm not convinced you're here for information. Your posts have the ring of someone who's really just angry and looking to avenge his old friend by humiliating the accuser.

I have not spoken to Mark Darling for 20 years and before that I hadn't spoken to him for 15 years. Back around 2000, I heard a message from him. I don't even remember if it was a tape or CD.

No, the accuser herself has given a story, which makes no sense.... And has admitted to fornication in the process.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 09:25:33 pm »

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR A PASTOR IN A COUNSELING RELATIONSHIP TO HAVE ANY PHYSICAL SEXUAL CONTACT WITH A COUNSELEE.  At least in the state of WI.  This would include hands on thighs and erection-pressing hugs. 

I just want to reiterate that because relationships and boundaries can feel blurred in a church setting (are we friends, brothers/sisters, etc?) but people should be aware that THE PASTOR is the one responsible for maintaining appropriate boundaries in a relationship.  Legally.  And ethically.  And morally.

I realize that some people on this thread are not concerned with clergy abuse (and seem to defend it) so I want to remind the reasonable people who might read this that these kinds of actions are NEVER OKAY and are the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PASTOR.  There are no questions for the counselees/church members/patients.  This also pertains to other counseling type relationships.  This is really a sacred trust that we put in pastors/counselors/therapists and any professional (or person with a title) who acts in an ethical manner should not violate that trust in any way, shape, or form.  Just so anyone who seeks help understands what the expectations are and are never blamed for the evil actions of another.



Agree, GP, I wanted to clarify my statement regarding pittwowo's boorish comment that involved victim blaming lest someone misunderstand my point.

It is not borderline adultery for the victim when a man in position of authority or power over her hugs her inappropriately.

In this case, Suzanne was a young believer (this started when she was 19) and getting counsel from MD. This is not an even playing field. MD was the counselor. Not only that, he was her pastor. HE WAS IN A POSITION OF SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OVER HER.

Not to be missed, MD was also responsible for determining whether or not her fiancé/husband would be "recognized" as a pastor or get the gig at the new church plant. So, HE WAS IN A POSITION OF POWER OVER HER FAMILY'S LIVELIHOOD.

There was a double power differential happening. A spiritual one and an employment one.

Therefore, no one has the right to ask:

1) Why did she get in the car with him?
2) Why did she go on walks with him?
3) Why did she let him hug her?
4) Why didn't she tell someone sooner?

The questions that needs to be asked and answered are:
1) Why did ECC keep this abuse hidden?
2) Why did ECC not follow through with the planned corrective steps?
3) How dare they preach "sermons" calling this situation "unfair" and "unjust" when they knew there was truth to the accusations and admit that they (the elders) dropped the ball?


I agree with that wholeheartedly... I'm just not sure Mark did that...
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Isthisreal?
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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2018, 09:40:43 pm »

Mark has paid the price....move on people. What more is there to rehash? Good grief..  On a sidenote: Boorish name calling in a boorish way: Mind Blown! Reminds me of Junior High. Very entertaining.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 10:54:21 pm »




But you can ask her why she committed fornication, when the Scriptures is very clear about that.... I Thess. 4. 




You really seem to like the word fornication! Why is that?

It is none of your friggin business what other people do.

You are a troll. This forum is for those who have left GCM churches, it is not for Darling supporters. Maybe you should contribute to the new Mark Darling website. You are abusive. It seems to be your lifestyle. Get therapy and learn how to treat people!

I'm calling it for what it is....fornication....

Now, that's kind of weird to say that "it is none of your friggin business what other people do." If we accept that standard, which I don't, but OK, then it's none of any of you all's business what Mark Darling does.

How do you know whether I am with a GCx church or not? 
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Wrestling
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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2018, 06:33:56 am »

Mark has paid the price....move on people. What more is there to rehash? Good grief..  On a sidenote: Boorish name calling in a boorish way: Mind Blown! Reminds me of Junior High. Very entertaining.


I understand  you may think this is over and done and Mark is gone so why are we still talking about this. But here’s the thing: the way Evergreen handled this is disturbing. This could happen again. We want to prevent that. We also want to see these women treated with the respect and dignity they deserve. I see that instead they have still been treated like lesser entities by this organization.

Thank you, Mark Darling, for resigning. Evergreen: we are watching you. We expect more from you. And we won’t let this get swept under the rug and blamed on personality types.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2018, 08:44:41 am »

Wrestling, good point.  Evaluating recent events at Willowcreek (I mean has ECC learned from them yet?) and the pastors involved in the cover-up of Andy Savage's abuse, the arc bends toward justice.  It didn't happen instantaneously, but because people inside AND outside the church (if you're not a cult, you will allow yourself to be influenced by outsiders) didn't just consider it "over and done" when not enough was done.  People (and that means current members, former members, the general public, the media, abuse watch groups) will continue to monitor this.

I wonder if ECC knows that what they do sends a message to victims of any abuse in their church.  It's either "we will protect you and stand up to the people who wronged you in this way," or "you're on your own," or even "we're part of the problem" by having pastors that covered things up and continue in their position. 

Mark Bowen should have to deal with his failures.  He failed multiple women, caused upheaval in his church, and was heavy handed with "lesser" persons he had "authority" over.  For him to just "move on" and consider this over without any restorative action taken...nope.  Name one change he is willing to make to make amends for his misdeeds, to make sure these things won't happen again.  And maybe GCC/ECC/Cedarcreek/Coulee Rock need to start rescinding their excommunications and publicly backtracking on the people they publicly shamed. 




I understand  you may think this is over and done and Mark is gone so why are we still talking about this. But here’s the thing: the way Evergreen handled this is disturbing. This could happen again. We want to prevent that. We also want to see these women treated with the respect and dignity they deserve. I see that instead they have still been treated like lesser entities by this organization.

Thank you, Mark Darling, for resigning. Evergreen: we are watching you. We expect more from you. And we won’t let this get swept under the rug and blamed on personality types.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2018, 09:15:24 am »


She had a boyfriend, she was not married, and according to her Mark Darling asked her about her favourite positions and what she sounded like during an orgasm. That would be a totally irrelevant question if she wasn't having sex... So, she had sex as a single woman. Thus that is fornication.

If she hadn't that question would be like: "what gun did you use to rob the store?"  If I said that someone asked me what gun I used to rob a store, and felt that was too personal of information to share, I'm implying that I robbed a store with a gun.

No, it's not correct for any sexual abuse to happen if the woman is fornicating or not.... I never said that. I said that I'm not convinced that this what she described happened. Even in the report, it says that much in unsubstantiated.

But if I were to believe what you believe, how can I say something is wrong, because you have no standard of right or wrong.... So, your own words contradict yourself, unless you can show me an objective standard as to what is right or wrong... I know I have One... the Bible.

So basically you have zero knowledge of the situation and are making enormous assumptions based on scenarios you've invented in your own head. I think its telling that you choose to believe the worst of Suzanne and the best of Mark, even after a detailed investigation resulted in MD being fired by his own church for sexual abuse. You clearly don't believe the survivors because they are women.

I'm sure you will respond with selectively chosen scripture to justify your misogynistic beliefs, but everyone can see through your little charade. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 09:21:26 am by G_Prince » Logged

Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
PietWowo
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2018, 10:36:43 am »


She had a boyfriend, she was not married, and according to her Mark Darling asked her about her favourite positions and what she sounded like during an orgasm. That would be a totally irrelevant question if she wasn't having sex... So, she had sex as a single woman. Thus that is fornication.

If she hadn't that question would be like: "what gun did you use to rob the store?"  If I said that someone asked me what gun I used to rob a store, and felt that was too personal of information to share, I'm implying that I robbed a store with a gun.

No, it's not correct for any sexual abuse to happen if the woman is fornicating or not.... I never said that. I said that I'm not convinced that this what she described happened. Even in the report, it says that much in unsubstantiated.

But if I were to believe what you believe, how can I say something is wrong, because you have no standard of right or wrong.... So, your own words contradict yourself, unless you can show me an objective standard as to what is right or wrong... I know I have One... the Bible.

So basically you have zero knowledge of the situation and are making enormous assumptions based on scenarios you've invented in your own head. I think its telling that you choose to believe the worst of Suzanne and the best of Mark, even after a detailed investigation resulted in MD being fired by his own church for sexual abuse. You clearly don't believe the survivors because they are women.

I'm sure you will respond with selectively chosen scripture to justify your misogynistic beliefs, but everyone can see through your little charade. 

I only know what is in the report.... It doesn't give any details. But again, since you have removed any absolutes in your life, or anything that has morals that are absolute, you have nothing to stand upon. For instance, I can say that if Mark did what Suzanne said that he did that that is abhorent. But youu can't say that, because you don't have any absolute standards to hold to. You have removed yourself from under the authority of God and His Word. But again, I haven't seen proof that what Suzanne said that Mark did, he really did. He denies it. It's his word against hers. And hers admits herself that she was sexually immoral with her boyfriend.
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