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Author Topic: The Reckoning  (Read 77853 times)
UserNumber123
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« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2018, 02:02:45 pm »

Just in case anybody missed Jeromy's link and didn't want to go back to the first page:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jcue3qxv4bc2upk/The%20Reckoning.pdf?dl=0

Also, this thread is about Jeromy's post and its relevance to Scout's accusation of sexual abuse towards Mark Darling. If you want to talk about the weather or dinner or grandchildren or any other subject then I suggest you start your own thread.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2018, 02:10:37 pm »

Since this is an ongoing investigation, I will reserve judgment for when an independent investigation is finished and the results are made public.  I have no evidence to give.  So I have no input, only that this needs to be properly investigated.

Until then, I hope you know that this letter looks like intimidation.  

And no, reading a letter or not reading a letter is not someone making a statement towards someone else's abuse who is not a direct party in this case.

Since sexual sin, abuse, and pornography are areas of activism and ministry for you, I'm sure in your training on these matters you know how incredibly triggering reading about someone else's abuse can be.  Some people may choose not to read to avoid those kinds of feelings today. Some people are choosing to avoid this site for similar reasons, and it's completely understandable.  That is not to be construed as a lack of support for anyone.  And I think people on this site have been really sensitive towards your mom and your family.  They are not on trial here.  In fact, your dad isn't either.  And a lot of people really liked your dad which I think is what makes it all so sad.  Dealing with hard stuff is good because it means you can move on and heal.  

I wish you the best, I really do.  And I am SO sorry for the loss of your unborn, precious baby.  In the middle of all of this, it must feel like a very dark time, and I do, I think we all do, feel for you, Jeromy.  This situation is something no PK should have to face coupled with a loss no parent should have to face.  You're going through a lot.  

Let's shine some impartial light in, guys.  Lessen the emotional stuff.  And understand an eye for an eye is nothing anyone wants here that I know of, but then I guess I can't speak for anyone else but me.
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Huldah
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« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2018, 02:17:33 pm »

I missed the part about the baby. I really am sorry for your loss, Jeromy.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2018, 02:28:26 pm »

Huldah, I am glad that there is a possibility for recovery for Levi, albeit a long one.
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Huldah
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« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2018, 02:33:13 pm »

Thank you, Rebel.
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Peacemaker03
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2018, 02:34:01 pm »

I have tried to stay out of this, and haven't posted here or anywhere, because I'm not always sure the conversation is helpful.  But I can't take it any more.  I am a member of ECC, disgusted by what's going on at my church, and disgusted by most of what is going on here.  I am disgusted that all parties seem more interested in attacking people who don't agree with them, rather than trying to listen.  If we are true Christians, we are called to be peacemakers.  We are called to try to bring healing to those in pain.  I'm not seeing a lot of this here.  In the last week, the only new perspective that i think align with this is Suzanne yesterday when she reached out to Evergreen to try to work with them to restart the investigation in a way that was agreeable to both parties, and would meet the needed transparency requirements.  I thought that was an olive branch, and spoke to me as a spirit of peacemaking.  The majority of the rest of the commentary has been angry people attacking ECC, agree people from ECC attacking others back, The Reckoning coming out with a spirit of "if you're not with me, you are my enemy, and I'm on the attack", more people coming back to attack the author like he is the original party that is being accused here (He is not, he is the accused son, who probably is struggling, and deserves to be given some grace, which I'm not seeing a lot of here).  EVERYBODY JUST NEEDS TO CALM DOWN.  Breath, unplug from the internet for a bit, and then come back and try to have a conversation that is open and respectful to all parties.
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observerX
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2018, 02:43:54 pm »

I have tried to stay out of this, and haven't posted here or anywhere, because I'm not always sure the conversation is helpful.  But I can't take it any more.  I am a member of ECC, disgusted by what's going on at my church, and disgusted by most of what is going on here.  I am disgusted that all parties seem more interested in attacking people who don't agree with them, rather than trying to listen.  If we are true Christians, we are called to be peacemakers.  We are called to try to bring healing to those in pain.  I'm not seeing a lot of this here.  In the last week, the only new perspective that i think align with this is Suzanne yesterday when she reached out to Evergreen to try to work with them to restart the investigation in a way that was agreeable to both parties, and would meet the needed transparency requirements.  I thought that was an olive branch, and spoke to me as a spirit of peacemaking.  The majority of the rest of the commentary has been angry people attacking ECC, agree people from ECC attacking others back, The Reckoning coming out with a spirit of "if you're not with me, you are my enemy, and I'm on the attack", more people coming back to attack the author like he is the original party that is being accused here (He is not, he is the accused son, who probably is struggling, and deserves to be given some grace, which I'm not seeing a lot of here).  EVERYBODY JUST NEEDS TO CALM DOWN.  Breath, unplug from the internet for a bit, and then come back and try to have a conversation that is open and respectful to all parties.



I have also chosen to stay out of these discussions for these same reasons. And also attend ECC. I just wanted to get on to say that I agree with this completely. I realize that both sides probably have a lot of people quietly watching while the extremes from both sides are the ones doing the talking. But I agree, we all need to step down and breathe a little. The complete hate I've seen from those who claim to be Christ followers is appalling. And it's been coming from BOTH sides. We as Christians are supposed to respond in love and I just haven't been seeing that. I really do hope to see a change in how everyone chooses to respond to others they disagree with. Thank you peacemaker for bringing this up.
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Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2018, 03:01:20 pm »

Peacemaker and Observer:  As someone who regularly participates on this forum, I guess I don't understand the by the claims of generalized hateful speech.  Can you provide some examples?  I see discussion.  I see strong words used (abuse, false teaching).  Every once in awhile there is a little snark or someone with dry humor.  Is criticism being confused with hate?  The whole point of this forum is for people to discuss problems within GCC...wouldn't we expect negative opinions of them? 

My question is sincere.  I know what I find to be angry and hateful on this board when I see it on occasion, I'm wondering from your positions what that looks like?

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Peace
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« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2018, 03:17:34 pm »

Rebel in a Good Way,

I have already built a dialogue with you, so can I chime in? (side-note: I truly wish we lived in the same state because I would absolutely get coffee with you and discuss the psychology in all of this. It simply fascinates me and I have a background in psychology. I do have a lengthy response in the works from your last post, but have put that on hold since "The Reckoning" happened.)

Anyways, here are my thoughts in regards to criticism being taken as hate. I think the vast majority of people on this forum, both non-GCx members and current GCx members, are not intending on harming one another. However, anonymous dialogue does allow people to post things they wouldn't say to a person face-to-face. Therefore yes, people sometimes are saying quite strong words with passionate emotion attached which if they were said to a person's face would be considered hateful. Both sides are guilty of this, but I am not about to start digging through the archives for examples and start pointing fingers as that would not be helpful... at all.

I will state this again and again. I believe people, churches, this movement and even this forum can change for the betterment of us all. We ARE brothers and sisters in Christ. Maybe let's remember this before hitting the button that says 'Post'.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 03:20:02 pm by Peace » Logged
Differentstrokes
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« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2018, 03:20:48 pm »

Just something I was thinking that goes with this, it's sooo hard to read tone in text form, so some times things that are said in a jokey way, or not meaning to sound harsh come off that way...
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Badger
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« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2018, 03:28:01 pm »

Do you think bullying me by calling names will make me more likely to dispense my name Jeromy?  The idea that you can demand something from someone else with the "Darling" name doesn't work outside your group.  You really have no power over me.

Jeremy started this thread by asking everyone to listen to his music and read his account.  Shortly there after he noted that he wanted us to feel ashamed, quoting 1 Corinthians 6.  In this passage, Paul does not discuss criminal cases. In a criminal case, the government prosecutes the accused on behalf of victims and/or the public’s welfare. In Romans 13, Paul teaches that criminal suits are to be handled by the state. “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established… For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason.9” Keith Krell explains this quite well in his series Saints Gone Wild: 1 Corinthians:

“One important clarification: Paul does not specify any criminal cases because he teaches elsewhere that these must be handled by the state (Rom 13:3-4). We must always distinguish between sins and crimes. Sins are handled by the church while crimes are handled by the state. Both are God’s governing authorities. Furthermore, when a crime has been committed, a Christian may at times be obligated to turn a fellow-Christian in and even to testify against him in court. The church does not have jurisdiction over criminal justice—that belongs to the state, according to Romans 13.”

Paul’s statements in 1 Cor 6 bear on an extremely limited context. The moment we press this passage beyond this context, we run into serious difficulties. For one thing, he is dealing with financial disputes, not with issues like violent crimes. Should we say that Christians may never prosecute other Christians for child-abuse, or domestic violence? That we should not contest child-custody if the other Christian parent is guilty of sexual abuse?

In my opinion, we should not even use this passage as a prohibition against ever suing another Christian over financial matters. There are always unique cases in our day and age: Flagrant, chronic default of child-support by a Christian parent. A swindler who takes a Christian small businessman for thousands (unable to pay employees) and then says, “You can’t sue me because I am a Christian.” A Christian who engages in dishonest business practices and refuses to comply with the decision of other Christians to make restitution needs to be judged by the church and possibly by those outside the church. These types of cases seem to fall into a 1 Tim 5:8 domain, where a believer is capable of behaving worse than an unbeliever. Consequently, judgment must fall! This actually serves to uphold Christ’s reputation and the testimony of the church.


In The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Johnson and Vanvonderen note 1 Corinthians 6 is often twisted by church leaders to support the unsubstantiated claim that Christians should never appeal to secular authorities. Congregants who wish to file charges are told it’s judgmental and unchristian to press charges and are silenced as a result of abuse of this Scripture. This is not a biblical directive to not bring suit against a church leader or congregant involved in a crime.  Publicly acknowledging a crime does not go against 1 Corinthians 6. As Christians, we are called to walk in the light exposing the truth, not hiding in the dark and covering things up.

The allegations against Mark Darling are more in lines of 1 Corinthians 5, where even the non-believing world knows the sexual sin that is being tolerated in The Church is sinful.  Paul asks the church to have nothing to do with such individuals and put them out of the church.

I know that is where we will disagree.  I find the allegations against Mark to have merit.  Those of us that believe Suzanne and others, who have brought abuse claims against Mark Darling and Evergreen, are waiting for a true investigation that is led by someone not bound by attorney client privilege to Evergreen Church.  I find it concerning that sexual abuse victims in Jeromy's family are being used to shield Mark from such allegations.  To me it makes it worse for Mark Darling to subject others to sexual abuse (alleged) when he has seen the effects of it in his own family.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 04:03:59 pm by Badger » Logged
G_Prince
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« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2018, 03:35:04 pm »

Well, I told myself I would never get on this site, but circumstances beyond my control have now forced my hand. Before you read what I have to say, please do me one small favor and turn this music on in the background:

https://soundcloud.com/jeromydarling/the-earth-groans

…music helps activate the brain and it’s really important to me that you all read and absorb what I have to say.

My father has been falsely accused of sexual misconduct, stemming from events that occurred over 17 years ago. Now dragged into the global #metoo argument, it’s my job as a son to defend my father & mother from the online abuse they've been silently absorbing, present the overwhelming evidence of my father's innocence and stand up for real victims everywhere so their stories are not drowned out by lies. These words are mine and mine alone.

Welcome to the reckoning...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jcue3qxv4bc2upk/The%20Reckoning.pdf?dl=0

Why should anyone here listen to you, ECC, or GCx when your church has rarely extended the same courtesy? I have no connection or knowledge of this specific situation, but the denial, anger, and personal attacks that fill your "reckoning" sure take me back to my GCx days. Dropping in and demanding that we read your manifesto while listening to an hour long New Age electronica piece you composed is pretty ridiculous.

More troubling, however, is that you've clearly come here in an attempt to intimidate Scout, invading a space where she was free to share her story and seek support. As a counselor I would think you would know better, but maybe you just don't care. This kind of aggressive behavior is a huge red flag and makes me question everything you've said.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 11:01:04 am by G_Prince » Logged

Here's an easy way to find out if you're in a cult. If you find yourself asking the question, "am I in a cult?" the answer is yes. -Stephen Colbert
Rebel in a Good Way
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« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2018, 03:49:52 pm »

Hi Peace, thanks for your input.  Chatting over coffee would be ideal!  My BA was in psychology, so I'm sure it would be interesting. No hurry on the other post.
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flippingtables
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« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2018, 04:21:59 pm »

It is clear we are also looking for information on what abuse is, why people respond the way they do, and what to do in the midst of it.

Hopefully this may be helpful.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/toxic-relationships/201706/the-truth-about-abusers-abuse-and-what-do
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Peacemaker03
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« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2018, 04:29:15 pm »

Peacemaker and Observer:  As someone who regularly participates on this forum, I guess I don't understand the by the claims of generalized hateful speech.  Can you provide some examples?  I see discussion.  I see strong words used (abuse, false teaching).  Every once in awhile there is a little snark or someone with dry humor.  Is criticism being confused with hate?  The whole point of this forum is for people to discuss problems within GCC...wouldn't we expect negative opinions of them? 

My question is sincere.  I know what I find to be angry and hateful on this board when I see it on occasion, I'm wondering from your positions what that looks like?



I did not say anyone used hateful speech, I just said that people were being a little too quick to attack people who disagreed with then, rather than trying to listen.  I understand that I'm on an internet forum, so maybe that's exactly what I should expect.  But if we are Christians, we are called to be peacemakers, we are called to respond in love.  I see someone above use the line, "Why should anyone here listen to you, ECC, or GCx" in response to Jeromy.  That sounds like attacking rather than listening.  And come on people, understand that this is someone who's father has been accused of a horrible crime, no matter what he says, it's in poor taste to attack him.  Maybe as Christians we should go out of our way to show him more grace in this troubling time for him.  Yes, I read his entire letter, and found it to be very disturbing and I would support very little of it, since it spends most of it's time attacking the victim and those supporting the victim.  But, come on people, put yourself in his shoes, your father who you love tremendously is being attacked and accused of a horrible crime.  How reasonable or logical would you be.  Let's just show him some grace and let this conversation fade away.
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Huldah
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« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2018, 04:32:32 pm »

I will post this here too, as it seems that many of you just skimmed over the statement. 

 One of your favorite
De-commissioned users, known as “blonde”, whose real name is Jason Stafiger (sp?) has
even gone as far as emailing my father 300-400 times EVERY DAY, with vicious and
disturbing threats and abuse (kindly, he’s only done that to me a few times).


Many of you keep speaking of how uncivil the discussions are with those of us that venture here to tell our side of the story. That we are abusive, and rude, etc.   Are you guys proud of Blonde's behavior?  Is this what you consider in the realm of God honoring, civil behavior?  Maybe he is justified in your minds? 
GTA, just wondering, how do you know that this is true? Not saying it isn't, because honestly I have no way of knowing. But how do you know?
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Linda
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« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2018, 04:45:35 pm »

GTA, Just a reminder, we are a group of people from all over the country who are here to discuss problems with theology and practice in Great Commission Churches. We do not speak for each other. We do not know each other. This is not a "conspiracy". We found each other by Googling words like "Great Commission Churches and cult" in the early 2000's. I do not know who started this forum. I'm glad it's here, though. It has helped many heal.

Jeromy, just a reminder, not all are anonymous. I would caution you that sometimes people are anonymous not because they are cowards, but because they are protecting something. Family relationships, for example.

We are all interested in getting to the bottom of these very serious charges. We are all seeking the Truth. We are all seeking justice.
In order for that to happen, it would be wise for ECC to choose an 3rd party independent investigation firm. It doesn't have to be GRACE, there are others, but using a firm hired by ECC to review charges made against ECC and one of it's pastors does not add credibility to any findings they come up with. Assuming, as you say, your dad is innocent, this would be the best way to vindicate him.



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iamnotafraid
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« Reply #57 on: March 08, 2018, 04:53:18 pm »

Let's also take ownership for our own actions.  I cannot make anyone do anything.  I am responsible for my own actions, not for another's.

It's like self-discipline in karate. Smiley  Someone else's words should not draw you into a fight.

I think 1 Corinthians 5 better describes your father's current situation and Evergreen's as well.


Let's discuss taking ownership for our own actions.  Let's take a look in the mirror.  I obviously know what my life looks like but Badger, since you have been questioning Jeromy on here, his job and his salary and his testimony, why don't we touch on that a little more.  His job: anyone who knows him personally knows that he left a very well paying job as a designer to work in ministry.  While I don't know what he is paid (I cannot imagine it is much), I can see from observing his life; he lives quite frugally.  He does not drive a fancy car, refuses to, and his children, while they are cute, dress in hand me-downs.  That's right.  A guy who used to work for huge, successful corporations left his career to do some pretty insignificant work ,ya know sharing the Gospel.  So...while you see his frustration over some pretty serious allegations against his father, as being an angry man - I think there's some righteousness behind that.  So...what about you.  Let's talk about your salary.  How do you spend your time and money AND what have you been doing for your personal "jesus," lately.  I'm glad you at least know you will stand before God proud of the way you've carried your cross.
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Linda
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« Reply #58 on: March 08, 2018, 05:03:20 pm »

Also, shout out to G_Prince. Nice to see you post. Hope all is well. God bless you.
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Huldah
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« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2018, 05:40:41 pm »

What i understand is that there are some guys that do web design stuff, and know how to figure some things out, and were able to track this information down somehow.  I don't know if it was and IP address or what.  Someone else might be able to answer this.  Blonde was not chosen as some random name, I know that. 

Okay, fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

It should go without saying that that's a terrible thing to do, but I'm saying it anyway, just so my position is clear: harassing someone with hundreds of emails a day is a terrible thing to do.
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