Welcome to De-Commissioned, a place for former members of the Great Commission movement (aka GCM, GCC, GCAC, GCI, the Blitz) to discuss problems they've experienced in the association's practices and theology.

You may read and post, but some features are restricted to registered members. Please consider registering to gain full access! Registration is free and only takes a few moments to complete.
De-Commissioned Forum
September 21, 2017, 06:58:10 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
  Home   Forum   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Faithwalkers 2010 (Or Faithwalkaz, as I like to call it)  (Read 54060 times)
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« on: December 28, 2010, 04:00:30 pm »

http://www.gccweb.org/conferences/faithwalkers/midwest/2010_teachings

I haven't listened yet, but I knew I wasn't the only one waiting eagerly!  Have at it, folks

Edited to add:   Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 09:47:00 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

Glad to be free.
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 10:47:00 pm »

The first talk by Brent Knox is what any parents wondering about GC should listen to.  I can't believe how cultish it is.  He speaks fondly of days (1976) sleeping on the floor of a condemned school building, eating two meals a day for conferences and meetings.  Then how hard it was to be in the group in the early days... missing sleep, working too hard, trying to study.  He explains all that difficulty away by thinking that he just hadn't prayed enough.  It's just sad.  I would be heartbroken if my kids went to college and ended up being crazy involved with a group like that.  I would be so sad if my kids instead of coming home for breaks, went across the country to sleep on a gym floor in a condemned building with a bunch of cult members.  This emphasis on "extreme costs" of following Christ is not healthy.  Yes, we should turn to God, but the stories he relates are just horribly sad.  Really, getting up at 5 on Fridays to deliver the church's newspaper, Today's Student?  How weird.  And then spending late nights with the group.  Just sickening to me.  These EARLY days are NOT something to be proud of.  They are the makings of a cult!

This guy needed boundaries then, and I'm wondering if he might not need some boundaries now.  I don't know because I don't know him, but his sermon certainly portrays the Christian walk as a painful, arduous battle, full of difficulties, hard work, and duty.  That's what discipleship to this group is all about.
Logged

Glad to be free.
georgewbush
Obscure Poster (1-14 Posts)
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2



« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2010, 12:57:27 am »

I'm going to step away from lurking for a minute to point out something said right at about the 56 minute mark of Brent Knox's first session.

"Christianity is the only religion in the world that sings."

It would be easy to take a quote like this and paste it here out of context just to show the ignorance of someone who didn't go to seminary. But listen to the context, listen to the entire thing. He is just throwing this "by the way" statement from his stream of consciousness as if he made it up on the spot.
Logged
MarthaH
Regular (15-99 Posts)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 62



« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2010, 05:50:11 am »

The message was very cultish. He told people that there were two types of Christians, sacrificial and non-sacrificial. Even though he gave a disclaimer when he said that people may leave the movement and continue to serve the Lord other places, right after that he told people to look to the people next to them and said they wouldn't be here in two or three years (which made me happy). The message that young people will take away is that if they would be quitting in some way if they wouldn't be at this conference or with this movement in 3 years.

He then gave examples of being worn out and how he wanted to quit. He was correct when he said that the problem was not doing things in the power of the Holy Spirit. However, he blameshifted by making it more about people not meeting with God. The reason people get worn out is because the things they are asked to do are not demanded by God, they are demanded by authoritarian leadership. Going to prayer meetings all night, evangelizing at malls, 4 or 5 meetings per week are not going to make someone bleed to death, agreed. However, being busy is not being sacrificial and suffering by having your life controlled by a pastor to serve his church is not being led by the Spirit.

So in summary, you are told to be a sacrificial Christian. The things which are wearisome to you are because you don't meet with God enough. Also, you shouldn't complain because you haven't shed blood, so you really aren't "suffering". Remember, the less comfortable and more miserable you are, the more it delights God. If you leave, you might go on and serve God, but not as well as you could if you just stayed put. And if you have the choice between becoming a doctor or giving up your dreams to serve the cause, it is better to serve the cause! I'm sure David Livingstone is turning over in his grave right now. Ironic because he was legitimately called by God and not manipulated to do what he did AND.....he was a doctor (I presume).
Logged
LucyB
Regular (15-99 Posts)
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 74



« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2010, 07:26:01 am »

It's interesting that he talks about the "fire that burned in our hearts" in the past tense, and wanting to crystallize that phenomenon before the "fire dies out." They place such a strong emphasis on recruiting youth and don't seem to understand that the call of God is for all people, not just young people. He said that God can be tasted, and that he still tastes God, though "not every day."  It seems odd that people as young as Brent Knox do so much public reminiscing instead of sharing what God says to them through his word each day. Moses was 80 years old when God appeared to him in the burning bush and called him to lead the people out of Israel.

Quote: "This is the $20,000 question: Where do you go and what do you do in your times of stress....to find relief? Video games? Connect? facebook? shopping? another person? a relationship with another person? or Jesus?"  

He starts with video games (probably every single one of them has guilt) and takes it straight to their relationships with others (like their mums) and implies that human relationships are not approved ways of coping with stress. Disturbing.
 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 07:34:39 am by LucyB » Logged
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2010, 07:50:36 am »

Quote
Christianity is the only religion in the world that sings.


 I noticed the singing line too, but was too tired to post on it last night.  I can't for the life of me, think of why he thinks this.  I mean, Judaism has it's cantors and a long history of song (psalms anyone?), Hinduism has songs, and of course, we've all heard the Islamic call to prayer, etc.  I'm not sure what he means.


Quote
He starts with video games (probably every single one of them has guilt) and takes it straight to their relationships with others (like their mums) and implies that human relationships are not valid ways of coping with stress. Disturbing.

I agree, Lucy, the message was designed to be guilt inducing, but I think he thinks that is encouraging.  I'm sure he was thinking of it as an exhortation to search out time with God and having him be our strength.  I'm really super uncomfortable with involvement with the local church being so stressful and painful that it requires such a huge emphasis on getting one's emotions in check and rejuvenating oneself.

  
Quote
The message was very cultish. He told people that there were two types of Christians, sacrificial and non-sacrificial. Even though he gave a disclaimer when he said that people may leave the movement and continue to serve the Lord other places, right after that he told people to look to the people next to them and said they wouldn't be here in two or three years (which made me happy). The message that young people will take away is that if they would be quitting in some way if they wouldn't be at this conference or with this movement in 3 years.

He then gave examples of being worn out and how he wanted to quit. He was correct when he said that the problem was not doing things in the power of the Holy Spirit. However, he blameshifted by making it more about people not meeting with God. The reason people get worn out is because the things they are asked to do are not demanded by God, they are demanded by authoritarian leadership. Going to prayer meetings all night, evangelizing at malls, 4 or 5 meetings per week are not going to make someone bleed to death, agreed. However, being busy is not being sacrificial and suffering by having your life controlled by a pastor to serve his church is not being led by the Spirit.

So in summary, you are told to be a sacrificial Christian. The things which are wearisome to you are because you don't meet with God enough. Also, you shouldn't complain because you haven't shed blood, so you really aren't "suffering". Remember, the less comfortable and more miserable you are, the more it delights God. If you leave, you might go on and serve God, but not as well as you could if you just stayed put. And if you have the choice between becoming a doctor or giving up your dreams to serve the cause, it is better to serve the cause!


Totally agree with you, Martha.  If CHURCH is causing that level of stress, you don't pray yourself into accepting it, you CHANGE it.  In my opinion, church should be at least in a small part, a place of refuge and peace, not a place where your to do list doubles, your stress level rises, and you become weary and tired.

This is not the first time they've taught this however.  This is an ongoing belief and teaching.  And honestly, is a teaching that spread to other things in life.  The emphasis is always on accepting what God has given you rather than trying to change it, but what is strange is sometimes the right thing to do is change it.  This happened with me when I tried to seek counseling on some issues, I was repeatedly told to "Just be thankful!", but I let something go for years trying to be thankful instead of changing it.  

Guess what, you get to steer the course of your life.  That is good and there is nothing wrong in that.  And it doesn't mean that you aren't following God.


« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 07:52:22 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

Glad to be free.
EverAStudent
Private Forum Access
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 716



WWW
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2010, 08:01:29 am »

Greetings.  There is a part of me that is frustrated with contemporary mainstream Christianity.  Frankly, it does not work hard for the gospel, nor does it suffer, nor does it tolerate self-sacrifice.  That work ethic and tireless evangelism was an aspect of GC that I found commendable.

However, I also believe that God is best served when all the saints are motivated to be the most educated they can be.  That includes seminary, Bible college, Bible school certificates, and secular university degrees.  Christians should and must be thinking people.

Finally, people have a NEED to counsel with other people.  Adam was with God person-to-Spirit in the garden, yet God said, "This is not good, the man needs a human companion."  It is a foolish theology that says that prayer and quiet-times alone are all a human needs, for God is the one who said it is NOT good for a person to be bereft of human companionship. 

This forum is a good thing for it stimulates thought, discernment, and companionship.
Logged
wastedyearsthere
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 192



« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2010, 08:23:09 am »

Again.  All this commitment to the church.  Where is the emphasis on our relationship with the Lord?  Even those messages depended on US. 

This is the problem with GCx -- everything is what we do not Who Christ is?  There is no motivation is doing this work.  After 10 years in this church I felt burned out.  Every message was full of guilt and shame.  We were never doing enough.  Everything depended on US.  Wrong theology.  WRONG in so many ways. 

Logged
wastedyearsthere
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 192



« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2010, 08:28:08 am »

I was good friends with Brent Knox.  You are right.  The early days were foolish days.  We went to conferences on buses that had no brakes (makes me cringe to think of it now), in the middle of snow storms,  we were encouraged to go to meetings even when very sick, no time for anything of a personal nature (you were made to feel guilty for spending time doing things you enjoyed).  If you didn't go to these meetings you were labelled fringe or uncommitted or rebellious.  There was no room for growth or process of life. 

He was the one who told me that it wasn't God's will for me to live in an apartment by myself or go to college (after all I would be getting married) or to get a good job since it would be too much time commitment and not enough time to share the gospel. 
Logged
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2010, 08:52:20 am »

I was good friends with Brent Knox.  You are right.  The early days were foolish days.  We went to conferences on buses that had no brakes (makes me cringe to think of it now), in the middle of snow storms,  we were encouraged to go to meetings even when very sick, no time for anything of a personal nature (you were made to feel guilty for spending time doing things you enjoyed).  If you didn't go to these meetings you were labelled fringe or uncommitted or rebellious.  There was no room for growth or process of life. 

He was the one who told me that it wasn't God's will for me to live in an apartment by myself or go to college (after all I would be getting married) or to get a good job since it would be too much time commitment and not enough time to share the gospel. 

Oh my.  I'm so sorry.  Were you able to go to college then and get a job you enjoy?  I hope so.  You would think one day, after maturing and becoming adults, that they would wake up and realize how young immature and controlling they were.  You would think they would have all this wisdom.  But nope, doesn't sound like it.  It sounds like that they think that was good back then.  This may be the saddest GC message yet. 

Your church should not be your secret pain that you can only go to God about.  How sick and twisted is that?  Church is a refuge of and for believers.  It's where we worship together, take communion together, love each other, welcome children and strangers.  It should be a place of peace and joy and love... not some monkey on your back!

I wish they could all leave and experience what a good church would be like.
Logged

Glad to be free.
wastedyearsthere
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 192



« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 09:28:36 am »

I knew it was time to leave when after every message, every meeting -- I left in pain and tears.  The messages were discouraging rather than encouraging.  Most messages seemed to be shame based.  Something you could do better - something you weren't doing right.  Reaching the world was up to US not God.  If everyone was doing what you are doing now, would the World be reached?  That was a main theme.    There was no focus on God nor our relationship with Him.  It was all related on reaching the world and what we could do differently. 

Logged
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2010, 10:54:56 am »

A Faithwalker's quote from Mark Darling, "Die, Mark, Die.  Die you filthy pig, die.  Cause that's all I think of my flesh."
 Cry





Logged

Glad to be free.
concerned4fam
Obscure Poster (1-14 Posts)
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1



« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2010, 01:21:53 pm »

Any thoughts as to why Tim Rude's talk (Session II on "The Cost of Discipleship Part I") isn't posted?  Was anyone at Faithwalkers that can summarize his message?
Logged
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 01:38:21 pm »

I was wondering that too.  Especially because Rob and Mark both referred to it.  I'm still hoping they will post them. 
Logged

Glad to be free.
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 06:46:07 pm »

Quote
"Christianity is the only religion in the world that sings."

Apparently, he has never heard of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir!

I think this may be an example of how "bad old school teaching" is perpetuated because I've heard it a lot. Someone in leadership (McCotter?) probably said that years ago and all the underlings immediately believed it without questioning because you are required to believe your leaders and not question them. They, in turn, kept teaching it and now it is automatically spoken as fact.

I think there is a lot of teaching that follows this pattern.

For example, I have never found anyone who could tell me where the Bible says the Church is an army. It likens Christians to soldiers, but it doesn't say the Church is an army. However, McCotter taught the church/army image (with him as the General) and it gets perpetuated. Many of the GC leaders are very bright men and it astonishes me that they are so illogical and unquestioning to the point that they perpetuate the bad teaching.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
georgewbush
Obscure Poster (1-14 Posts)
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2



« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 07:08:17 pm »

The army thing is prevalent in a lot of conservative churches. I think it mainly comes from the whole "spiritual armor" idea.
Logged
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 07:27:24 pm »

Also, the verse that says endure hardship like a good soldier.

I have not heard the "church is an army" concept as stated by GC leaders in "a lot of conservative churches". It's a misinterpretation of the metaphor.

McCotter was all about the church being an army. The cover of his book on leaders has military ribbons on it. In the army, the generals give the orders and the privates obey without question.

When someone isn't careful in their teaching and says things like "Christianity is the only religion in the world that sings," or doesn't understand how to read the metaphors in the Bible, you have to really listen carefully and question everything they say or you will be easily deceived.
Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
AgathaL'Orange
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 962



« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 08:21:01 pm »

Mark pulls out Normandy again, and compares it to what GC is doing.  Sigh.
Logged

Glad to be free.
Linda
Household Name (300+ Posts)
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1642



« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2010, 01:02:40 pm »

And, in that Normandy comparison there is a very obvious connection with 19 & 20 year old men taking orders from their leaders and doing things that are "unreasonable."

By the way, I find it blasphemous when he says that Jesus only had to suffer in Gethsemane one night and he has to go to Gethsemane every day, thousands of times, for the rest of his life. Like he has suffered more than the Lord? Unbelievable.

Sam, I think you were on to something with your post on narcissistic leaders. If you listen to these talks you realize that most of them are about "what I did that you should do", or "what I did/do in spite of terrible persecution that no one could possibly understand", or "what our movement does that no other Christians do".

What I hear when I listen to these messages is idolatry. It is God + something.

For GC leaders, the something is "the Movement". For others it is drugs or sex or an independent lifestyle.

Whatever the "something" is that you can't live without, that is your idol.

To GC leaders who might be reading this, I am warning you as lovingly as I can, you have built yourself an idol. It is your church, your movement, your leadership positions. Repent.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 01:05:23 pm by Linda » Logged

Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
wastedyearsthere
Veteran (100-299 Posts)
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 192



« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2010, 02:46:27 pm »

Godliness is the goal for childraising?Huh  What about relationship (??)   

All of these messages reak with pomposity.  Now that I'm in another church where the leaders admit their weaknesses and faults and regularly talk about their failures -- I see the ridiculous arrogance. 

I definitely see Narcissism -- but also pride.  Sam definitely hit the nail on the head. 
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
SimplePortal 2.1.1