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Author Topic: Spanking  (Read 124226 times)
Linda
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« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2010, 11:03:16 am »

Did leaders publicly announce how often they spanked their children? (Not that I don't believe you, I was just wondering if these comments were in sermons/messages or said more privately.)

I am reminded once again how Founder McCotter (the man who taught commitment for life and then deserted them in the mid-80's Smiley ), said, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."


I've said it before and I'll say it again. When you hear GC leaders talk about how their former leader was vilified by a newspaper article in the Des Moines Register, they are talking about this article. When you hear them say their leader was persecuted, this quote is one of the forms of persecution. My GC pastor referred to this article and said that he was denied permission to marry his wife when her parents read this article. Only he forgot the part about the "black and blue" and not "necessarily" having a bloody mess on your hands. He just made it sound like the leader was on fire for the Lord and most of the world didn't understand how someone would give their life to serve God, so persecution even came from other Christians. He had to wait 2 years to marry because of this awful wave of persecution and then he did it, I believe, without the permission of her parents, but with the permission of his GC elders.

Honestly, if my daughter was thinking about marrying a person who followed this leader, I would be on my knees begging her not to and begging God to intervene.
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G_Prince
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« Reply #101 on: November 12, 2010, 11:43:33 am »

I cannot agree more with what is being said!

Spanking is ingraned in society as a complelty legitamite way to treat your kids. Most people just accept it as a modus operandi without thinking through what they are actually doing. It's not simply a GCx issue.

However the way GCx glories in their spanking practices is disgusting. I've heard Whitney and others practically bragging about how many times they've "trained" their kids with the rod. Like Linda pointed out (and I've never thought about this till now), spanking was one of the first things that got them in trouble with "the world." It is a badge of honor, a martyr's crown they can branish to show how willing they are to follow the Bible in it's most literal sense.

The Bible says to train up a child with a rod so that's what they do. It is almost impossible to argue against this interpret because it is right there in Proverbs. No amount of trauma (sufferd by their own kids no less!) will convince them to ignore this passage or think about it "metaphorically."

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #102 on: November 12, 2010, 11:56:25 am »

No, Linda, as far as I know, there was never a sermon that stated a number of times.  I do remember RW speaking in a sermon a "willbreaking" episode with his daughter over a piece of paper that she refused to pick up.  He continued to spank her until she picked it up.  The 200 times pastor wasn't GC, and was oddly the outside person we went to to counter the GC info we were getting... and that's what he told us.  Weird!  But apparently GC isn't the only church to practice that!  Now the 100 times a day episode was in a private conversation with a pastor's wife over what I should do with my special needs infant as he was growing and developing.  I felt like spanking him was not appropriate because he didn't seem to understand like other babies woulld (at the time I was considering smacking his hands )  I said that I felt he would have to be spanked 100 times a day with his cognitive level (trying to state an extreme example so she would understand how ridiculous it would be) and she said sincerely and calmly, "Sometimes that's what it takes!"  I was incredulous and she confirmed that statement again.  Whether she literally meant 100 episodes of slapping/spanking per day or just a whole bunch... I can't say.  I do know that they believed in fully and completely carrying out discipline and I have NO doubt that they did punish that much.  We witnessed several episodes of spanking, respanking, and then respanking over the course of a few minutes for things like not getting off the back of the couch instantly or not coming immediately when called.  I taught my son to come to me by giving him a surprise and by playing hide and seek.  To this day, my son is very low functioning but always comes when called and is really compliant.  It would have been so cruel to follow their methods.  In addition there were foster parents who stated that they spanked their foster children, even though it is prohibted by law.  Spanking was the only way to parent there.  Discipline meant spanking.  And always spanking.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #103 on: November 12, 2010, 12:07:43 pm »

Gene, I agree.  I also think there is such a different range of what people think is spanking.  I think a couple of swats... maybe up to five would be spanking.  I think the people we are discussing may believe in more and to me that is a "beating". Certainly in the frequesncy, duration, and intensity GC appears to advocate the more extreme form.  There is no apology made that the point of spanking is to align a child's  thinking with the parents.  It's not about a consequence, it's about a mental takeover in which you need to completely and totally agree and submit to your parents without question or doubt.  It's no coincidence that they also believe in total submission to church authority as well, down to major life questions... where you will live, who you will marry, etc. It's two sides of the same coin and sheer stupidity to think we can change someone's heart by warming their backside.  As a consequence, mild spanking could be argued to be acceptable.  Still not what I believe, but not abuse.  For creating a real heart change, I don't think it works.  Severe spankings work great for brainwashing, and brainwashed people can LOOK like they have good character. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 12:12:39 pm by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Linda
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« Reply #104 on: November 12, 2010, 12:22:01 pm »

The thing is, I'm not against spanking. I just think it should be limited and rare. I think a lot of high control groups have issues with spanking and one of the worst consequences is that parents stop being the parent and discipline based on what others think rather than what they believe. Leaders in GC are "recognized" and I can't help but think that in order to be "recognized" people need to see you in action.

A friend was mentioning a Tim Keller book on idols yesterday and one idol that caught her attention was the idol of "what other people think". GC leaders are chosen by that method, aren't they. In order to be "recognized" you have to do things to be seen by and approved by men. I think that is one of the most insidious aspects of the GC elder system.

Even Dobson in Dare to Discipline says you should not discipline a child for being a child and doing things like exploring their world. I believe he also addresses the issue of never forcing discipline. The example I remember was that if you tell your 4 year old to go to bed and they don't, you need to have a consequence. But he also said, why do that. Why not lovingly walk your child to his/her room, help them get their jammies on, help them brush their teeth, and then read them a story and tuck them in rather than order them around and spank them if they don't obey while you sit in your chair reading a magazine.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2010, 01:29:01 pm »

I agree, Linda.  GC takes a tool and makes it into a mission.  My husband and I call it parenting from your hind end vs engaged parenting.  But I don't think it's even about compliance or convenience for GC, it's about instilling the core mission.  To keep with all of the military metaphors, it's bootcamp to build character and instill a selfless vision for the lost.  But again, they may win the battle but lose the war.
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steelgirl
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« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2010, 07:42:07 pm »

Unfortunately spanking your children is entirely legal in this country. If you strike an adult that is battery but if you strike a child that is perfectly fine?

When does it become abuse? What I experienced was abuse. Should I report my parents, or let it go? Would I ever let my parents babysit my kids? I would be lying if I said I didn't have reservations about that.

How do you deal with parents who spank their children in the GC way? How do you help them see the error of it all?

I would love to know how to do that for the sake of my nephews and nieces.  But I don't go to the church any more, I quit why would they listen to me?

I am not entirely antispanking.  I think there are times spanking would be appropriate but not according McCotter's twisted phillsophy.
Ia
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steelgirl
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« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2010, 07:55:17 pm »

These kids are now leaders in their parents' movement.  All of them have stayed with their parents.  Parents view this as success.  I view this as never learning to question or think for themselves.  Such kind and gentle people... how can they spank kids like that?  That's the same "loving" family that loved God, the Rod, and your Child's Bod, and in the late 90's, early OO's were insisting their toddler sit perfectly through church with no toys or else a spanking.  They suggested squeezing baby's hands for patting a mom's face because that was HITTING.  How sickly ironic.  Did I mention the baby they wanted me to spank had brain damage, a feeding tube and had just gotten out of the hospital after being there 4 months?  They are so "benevolently" abusive.  Looking back, when they told me to spank my sick baby, I should have left, but me being brainwashed stayed another 6 years.  Sooooo stupid.
 
What state were you in and when were in this movement.  I knew one individual who might have been a victim of McCotter's philosophy back in the 70s, 80s and possibly 90s.  Had issues over how life was treating me.  I unintentionally pissed her off with something that is one of trademark masterpieces.  She told me she grew up in an abusive home, yet she and her husband are leaders in this movement.  Maybe she will not make the same mistakes that her parents listened to.  How old was your baby at the time and did you listen to them?
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #108 on: November 12, 2010, 09:59:50 pm »

Younger than one and no, I didn't listen to them.  I didn't challenge them though, which was stupid.  Anyway, I'm done with this movement and said what I want to say.  I feel ,like just dropping off the forum now because I feel so free now!  Looking back, I just feel like I have been given a new life.  So great.  I hope we all feel that way!  Goodbye GC! 
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #109 on: November 13, 2010, 08:28:41 am »

I'm through with the movement -- but see the point to stay on this forum.  How many are in GCx and over-spanking their babies?  How many think they are doing God's Will by doing so? 

I was one.  I regret staying until my oldest was age 4 in the church.  This daughter still has bad memories of all the spankings -- too many too often. 

We need to stay and inform others. 

I remember being told that a main-line church was too liberal because they didn't spank for EVERYTHING!  I was told Dr. Dobson and Chuck Swindoll were too liberal as well..............   Cry
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IWishToRemainAnonymous
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« Reply #110 on: March 27, 2011, 06:31:37 am »

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/26/members-of-aleitheia-bible-church-in-wisconsin-charged-with-abus/

From the article (This is not a Great Commission Church. However, notice the similarities)...

The pastor and seven members of a small church in central Wisconsin have been charged with using wooden rods to spank infants as young as 2 months old for "being emotional, grumpy or crying," the Dane County Sheriff's office said.

The children often were punished when they cried or failed to sit still during church services, a former church member told authorities. "Phil was very strict about children being quiet during church," the complaint states.

According to the sheriff's office, the dowels were described as being 12-18 inches long with a diameter about the size of a quarter. The parents told detectives that "redness and bruising" were the "common effects of the spankings."

John Caminiti told investigators in November that he does not allow his family to communicate with people outside his religious beliefs and has punished his wife and son by confining them to their rooms until they corrected their disobedience, according to the Wisconsin State Journal.

From a 1978 Jim McCotter article...

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 02:51:49 pm by IWishToRemainAnonymous » Logged
G_Prince
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« Reply #111 on: March 27, 2011, 07:14:05 pm »

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/26/members-of-aleitheia-bible-church-in-Wisconsin-charged-with-abus/

From the article (This is not a Great Commission Church. However, notice the similarities)...

The pastor and seven members of a small church in central Wisconsin have been charged with using wooden rods to spank infants as young as 2 months old for "being emotional, grumpy or crying," the Dane County Sheriff's office said.

The children often were punished when they cried or failed to sit still during church services, a former church member told authorities. "Phil was very strict about children being quiet during church," the complaint states.

According to the sheriff's office, the dowels were described as being 12-18 inches long with a diameter about the size of a quarter. The parents told detectives that "redness and bruising" were the "common effects of the spankings."

John Caminiti told investigators in November that he does not allow his family to communicate with people outside his religious beliefs and has punished his wife and son by confining them to their rooms until they corrected their disobedience, according to the Wisconsin State Journal.


Thanks for sharing that. As someone who was spanked the GCx way, I can say that these principals were commonly practiced and encouraged in GCx.

-I never heard of spanking a 2 month old but I knew of more hard core parents who started around 6 months.

-Wooden dowels were exactly what was used on me. I even helped my mom pick them out at the hardware store!

-Having a quiet kid in church was one of the best ways to demonstrate your "Godly" parenting. Blanket time (making your one-year-old stay on a blanket and spanking them if they get off) was widely practice and encouraged. In a recent faithwalkers message you can hear Pat Sokoll compliment all the parents who had brought their kids to the meeting and the "blanket city" that had developed in the back of the room.

-There was a lot of concern among parents about bruising on the legs, back, and buttocks...not because the child had been injured, but because it could easily look like "child abuse" to doctors, teachers...etc.

-I was never locked in my room nor was my mom. I haven't heard of any such practice being advocated. In the GCx mindset this would be a waste of time. Beat your kid...its much faster and straightaway. If you wife doesn't submit, call your leader and he'll round up some people to give her the guilt trip of a life time. 

Other than that, this article could have been written about GCx, and I don't mean the Mcotter days...I'm talking NOW.
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Linda
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« Reply #112 on: March 27, 2011, 07:52:05 pm »

So this thing with blanket time really disturbs me. I did not hear about this until after we left our GC church, but it was confirmed by some friends who left. Is this an Ezzo, Pearl, or Tripp thing or did McCotter come up with it? Anyone know?

My husband and I were talking about it today and he pointed out that the idea of setting a kid on a blanket and then putting things out there to "tempt" them to go off the blanket (I read about that someplace) and then spanking them if they succumb to temptation is really not of God because God tempts no one. (James 1:13). Temptation comes from someone else.

I was curious about your comment about GC wives being put into line by other GC elders. Did this happen often in your experience?





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Rebekah
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« Reply #113 on: March 27, 2011, 08:15:55 pm »

And, um, what about locking his wife and son in their rooms for their disobedience! I really, really want to believe that people who do stuff like this truly don't see how they're hurting the people around them, but sometimes it's a bit of a stretch.
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #114 on: April 01, 2011, 09:07:20 pm »

I Found some very good stuff on the mayo clinic website:

Parenting tips: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/parenting-tips-for-toddlers/MY00480


Child Abuse: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/child-abuse/DS01099


All these are on their child abuse list:
 Bruising
 Spanking multiple times a day
 Spanking an infant

National Child Abuse Hotline: 800-4-A-CHILD (800-422-4453)
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Huldah
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« Reply #115 on: April 02, 2011, 09:33:11 am »

For evangelicals in the 80's, it was very difficult to avoid the influence of the Pearls or the Ezzos, even if you weren't part of GC. Our church in Germany (an American church serving military families) went all-out for Growing Kids God's Way. I never went to the extreme of wooden dowels and so forth, but I'm convinced that listening to the Ezzos made me a harder mother than my kids deserved. I wish I could have those years back to do it differently.

Having said that, I'd like to respectfully add a word of caution about reporting anyone to CPS (AKA child abuse hotlines, DCFS, AYS, or any number of other names depending on your location). In my opinion, CPS should only be a weapon of last resort (and I use the term "weapon" deliberately). Personally, I could never report a family unless I knew a crime had been committed against a child or I was convinced that serious bodily harm to a child was probable and imminent.

I've been researching the topic of CPS and foster care for a number of months now. Many people assume that child protection agencies have the power to breeze in, straighten out whatever is wrong with a family, and then go their way, leaving the parents chastened but wiser. The truth is that our current laws mainly support removing the children from home and placing them into foster care, possibly for months or years on end. There's very little funding to help families, but plenty of federal funding (thanks to the so-called Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997) to keep families separated while the parents jump through an endless series of hoops (parenting classes, psychotherapy, supervised visitation, etc.). With all due respect to the many excellent foster parents out there, children are not necessarily safer in a foster home than they are with their parents. For one thing, children are more likely to be killed, injured, or raped in foster care than they are with their biological parents (even when those parents leave a lot to be desired). For another, it's traumatic to children when they're removed from their home and familiar surroundings, all the more so because they often blame themselves for being "sent away". On top of the emotional trauma, CPS intervention causes multiple levels of economic damage to a family. That means that if the children do eventually come home, they come home to a situation that is bleaker and more stressful than the one they left.

In short, I would urge anyone to consider child abuse hotlines only when the situation is so bad as to justify the most severe measures. I've watched CPS working up-close and personal in the lives of a young couple I know who were falsely accused of neglect. As a result, I've made an effort to learn everything I can about the child protective system. The system is as bad as I've described, and worse. Not that they never get it right or never do any good, but that they so often get it wrong and do so much unnecessary harm.

(Edited to fix typos.)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 09:36:17 am by Huldah » Logged
LucyB
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« Reply #116 on: April 02, 2011, 04:54:46 pm »

In my experience, the Department of Human Services removes children from their homes only in the most extreme cases. The criteria varies by county. Their goal is to keep families together if it is safe to do so. They have neither the resources nor the inclination to do otherwise. As a mandatory reporter, I frequently work with them, and am more often frustrated by the fact that children stay with their parents when the parents are mentally ill, on drugs, and for a variety of reasons unable to effectively parent their children. A report of suspected abuse never leads to a child being removed from the home; it only leads to an investigation. The family will receive a worker who will interview each member of the family and make a recommendation. Sometimes the family is helped just by having a resource, and it is always good to get a child in need of assistance on the radar of entities who can intervene. I would not recommend waiting until a child is in danger for two reasons: a) it is impossible to recognize the severity of the situation and b) a referral only initiates an investigation--not a removal. If the child is in imminent danger, call the police who do have the authority to remove the child on the spot.

These people are proponents of GCx parenting. They make the Ezzos look like Dr. Spock!
http://www.premeditatedparenting.net/34_when_discipline_not_working.htm

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« Reply #117 on: April 02, 2011, 07:34:44 pm »

Here is study on corporal punishment I found on line, thanks Google:

http://www.nospank.net/n-j31.htm

(From source above)

Quote
"Here's how a child's thinking might develop, says Hyman: "He hits his little brother. The mother yells, `Don't hit your brother!' and then she spanks him. Does he think, `I should never hit my brother because it's wrong, and I know what it's like to get hit and it hurts'? Of course not. He thinks, `It's OK for a big person to hit a small person when you're the parent.' "

Preach it brother!

Quote
Unfortunately, he says, toddlers are the children most likely to be spanked and the ones most at risk for damage from it. "Regular spanking produces chronic stress that has been shown to slow brain development," Straus says. That's one way he links spanking to poor academic performance.

I still have a big problem with stress in my life, I know I was scared when a parent was in a bad mood, or one of my siblings was upset....
 
Quote
Hyman says parents who spank tend to be willing to do it repeatedly until a child complies, but it's the consistency of a strategy more than the actual punishment that gets results. "If parents were willing to apply the same consistency to other strategies, they would be successful with that, too," he says. Indeed, Straus says it's a combination of alternative strategies that enable children to feel loved, supported, and encouraged rather than angry and resentful.

After a long time my siblings and I learned to solve problems ourselves because my parents would just resort to spanking as the one size fits all solution, so sad....
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« Reply #118 on: April 02, 2011, 07:41:24 pm »

Here is another resource:

http://umaine.edu/publications/4357e/
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« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2011, 04:37:24 pm »

Here are instructions for blanket time. It does promote spanking. http://www.premeditatedparenting.net/49_blanket_time.htm

"Depending on the child, it might be a little early to discipline the youngest."  The youngest child is 6 months old! This does promote spanking babies.  It MIGHT be a little early?  This post is troubling on several levels. This mom probably should have help. She never suggests that this mom needs help or needs some time off. The mother of a six-month-old should not be blown off. Also the title of the post is three kids--two arms. She doesn't have three--she has five! A seven-year-old and a five-year-old need some quality time and need to be held and cuddled. http://www.premeditatedparenting.net/59_three_kids_in_two_arms.htm

In this post, she does not recommend spanking a 5-month-old, but does strongly encourage spanking as a Biblical mandate. http://www.premeditatedparenting.net/15_can_other_forms_blessed.html
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 05:46:53 pm by LucyB » Logged
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