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Author Topic: Spanking  (Read 124231 times)
Linda
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« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2011, 07:23:08 pm »

This is so sad. Children are not puppies. They are human beings made in the image of God.

Of course, if you swat a kid enough times, they will learn to sit quietly on a blanket for hours at a time. They will also learn some very bad lessons about God, our Heavenly Father.

I am thankful that when I am hurt, or sad, or troubled, or lonely, or mad I can go to my Heavenly Father who will listen and not be too busy for me. He will not ever say, "Oh, that Linda, she needs to learn to live without me and get along on her own. I've got more important things to do."

Also, at 1 and 2 years of age, children shouldn't be sitting on a blanket for hours at a time.

I say to these "blanket time" proponents, if you want life to be easy for you so you can accomplish lots of tasks during the day and not be bothered, don't have children, get a puppy. You can train them in no time, they will be much cheaper in the long haul, plus, if they get to be too much trouble, you can just bring them to the pound or have them put down. It will save you a lot of bother.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 08:37:13 pm by Linda » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2011, 07:43:34 pm »

Great points, Linda!  I appreciate your insight as a mother of 5 kids now grown.  I would like to add that for convenience sake, why wouldn't you just let your baby cuddle with you in a sling or baby bjorn anyway.  That way, they are always with you so you can keep an eye on them, and they get to see everything you are up to?  I used to love taking my kids around with me and plop them in a little vibrating bouncer with toys while I folded the laundry.  We would make eyes at each other and it was very sweet.  As far as church goes, I suppose GC people would think I was a horrible failure as none of my children like to sit.   But even my littlest can walk several miles and then plop in the stroller when she gets tired (she's four) and I'd much rather have my children running and expanding their lungs and testing their curiosity and learning.  I have so much to learn as a parent.  But fear is something I'd like to obliterate both for me and for my kids. 
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #122 on: April 04, 2011, 07:20:50 am »

Blanket time is just more convenient for the pastor, after all If your sheep are paying more attention to their brats how will they get anything out of the hours of meetings that they must attend sitting in chairs themselves? I think sitting is bad for everyone even adults. Wouldn't it be better if all the adults where standing, laughing, acting more....  childlike? The heart of the problem with most GC people is just that: Childishness. They don't value it at all. instead they prep their children for the legalistic lives of discipline ahead of them. Childhood is not all training! It is falling in love with a big wonderful world, it is about dreams and hopes, good and evil, and above all else it is about play. GC does not give a rip about that, they just want their children to be the future yes men and yes women that they need.

I think it's time for some RATM "killing in the name"...     Ahhh, much better. Smiley Ya, I won't do what you tell me.
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"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
BTDT
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« Reply #123 on: April 04, 2011, 07:37:18 am »

In my experience, the Department of Human Services removes children from their homes only in the most extreme cases.
LucyB - I respectfully ask that you take a look at this:

http://annarbor.com/news/ann-arbor-familys-custody-ordeal-over-mistaken-alcoholic-drink-order-for-son-sparks-federal-lawsuit/

I don't know the family in question, but saying the "child protection system" overstepped its bounds is putting it mildly.  There are many such stories.
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #124 on: April 04, 2011, 07:46:18 am »

http://www.premeditatedparenting.net/18_is_spanking_abuse.html

OMG! Shocked


Proverbs 13:24 He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. NIV

I would understand this verse to mean: "He who surrenders his authority" hates his son...  or does discipline just mean spanking?

I understand this article to say: "It may look like we are abusing our kids but we're not."

on a Personal note: Spanking for me leads to fear, resentment, anger, depression, and a desire for revenge. It is powerlessness in the face of a dictator who is always watching for your faults.

From article:
Quote
"It’s better to face a little pain now than a lot of pain later. This is an important principle to understand when it comes to discipline!"

That "little" pain leaves some bad scars. Emotional hurts that stay in you for a long time deep inside. The memory of a sibling crying as the swats fell, and you ran to your room to hide your head under the pillow. You know it is your fault that they are being punished if only you could have controlled your anger when they said something to make you cry, than they would not be in pain now.

That "Little" pain hurts more than a lot of the big pains I have had in my life, pain from a injury is not as bad as that "little" pain that you talk about. What are you talking about? What pain is being saved? I Still Hurt! Angry

I hear the reply, "but its what God want's us to do."....         I have no desire to obey your god.  Sad

From: The center for effective Discipline http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=repfund
"All of these conclusions seem to have implications for children placed in a fundamentalist Christian environment. Associated Content, in a May 2007 posting, The Effects of the “No Spanking Law” on Child Abuse in Sweden, discusses a law passed in Sweden in the 1970’s that made spanking a civil offence. Before the law, the family violence child death rate in 1970 was 18%. In recent years it has been 0%. By 1981, only 26% of Swedish parents supported spanking. Now it is less than 11%. In 1996, there were 57 reported cases of child abuse per 100,000 people. At the same time in the US that figure stood at 4,500/100,000."
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 08:37:55 am by Captain Bible » Logged

"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
LucyB
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« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2011, 11:07:12 am »

Ed:

Thanks for the article. I do not live in Michigan. These departments vary from state to state and from county to county. Giving alcohol to children is a common form of child abuse. We have seen infants that had Vodka in their bottles. His excuse that he did not know that the lemonade contained alcohol probably did not have much influence on the authorities. Since the mother was not involved or aware, she should have been given custody of the child. I would imagine she was quite unhappy with the father! This removal was not necessary. I still think the security guard was obligated to call the authorities.


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Huldah
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« Reply #126 on: April 05, 2011, 01:55:36 pm »

LucyB, thanks for sharing your perspective on child protection agencies.

Some jurisdictions are more corrupt than others. It's also possible that CPS sticks more closely to the rules when a third party professional (such as a teacher) exercises ongoing de facto oversight of a case.

I began trying to learn more about this issue after watching a family I know suffer an Orwellian case of CPS abuse. Their infant was taken away first, and the subsequent investigation was an attempt to justify the removal after the fact. Not only did CPS overreact to a situation which didn't endanger the child, but based on what I know to be true of the case, I'm convinced that:

- the caseworker perjured herself in the report she filed with the court;
- her supervisor is aware of and unwilling to challenge the perjury;
- the caseworker definitely violated her department policy in the investigation, and probably committed a felony civil rights violation in the process;
- the local CPS office is simply not interested in placing the infant with well-qualified family members living in the same state. They seem determined to see this child adopted by strangers. I do not understand the reason for this, but I find it profoundly disturbing.

This seems not to be an isolated case, because there have been a number of articles in our local paper documenting problems with CPS in our community. A city councilman and a local prosecutor have gone on record criticizing local CPS offices for abuses of power. One of our state senators frequently blogs about CPS corruption in our state.

In the big picture, I don't know whether your experience with CPS or mine is more typical. I only know that I've heard from parents all over the US whose children have been traumatized and who have been harassed and impoverished by unnecessary CPS intervention. In good conscience, it would have to be an extreme case indeed that could motivate me to call CPS.

If anyone would like to know more about the subject, the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform (http://nccpr.info/ and http://www.nccprblog.org/) is probably the best Internet source for information. I also recommend the excellent book, Wounded Innocents by Richard Wexler.

(Edit to fix typo.)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2011, 02:12:23 pm by Huldah » Logged
Captain Bible
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« Reply #127 on: April 14, 2011, 08:03:02 pm »


Reading a great book by Philip Greven "Spare the Child"

The author is talking about:
Quote
" The Leatherman's Handbook- a guide to techniques of "discipline" and "punishment" for adult men to practice on one another"...
(No this is not the Gender ID thread, stick with me...) 

I was struck by this thought:
Quote
"The crucial question, which ought to be asked (but rarely is), is this: why is it a "perversion" when adults reenact physical punishments voluntarily, but "normal" when adults assault-hit and beat- children from infancy through adolescence? If anything is truly perverse, surely it has to be the striking and the hurting of children by adults." 

Wow.
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"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #128 on: April 15, 2011, 11:52:13 am »

I think this is oh so important, Captain Bible!  We can't ignore this aspect!  I totally agree.

In addition, the buttocks are erogenous zones, VERY close to the genitals.  Not only that, I teach my children not to touch people's rear ends, not to look at them or show them to people.  They are private.  Why in the world would we touch them?  And to cause pain?

I believe the humiliation this causes for some is so damaging.  It's the ultimate submissive posture.  It's the ultimate powerless posture.  The fact that it is done (and I used to be a die hard spanker, so grace and mercy is paramount towards spanking parents, trust me) by a large and powerful adult to a young, whimpering, and powerless child is tragic.

I'm so tired of this debate in many ways, so I'm trying to decide whether I should even post this...

This isn't meant to be an attack on spankers (I still struggle with this area), but just a thought. 



.

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Captain Bible
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« Reply #129 on: April 16, 2011, 10:40:12 am »

The debate is tiring, I find it hard to talk about something that no one else wants to talk about openly.
Am I bind or has this thread been read over 40,000 times? Maybe this is striking a chord with people, that is why I am still talking. I Will Not Stay Silent.

Lets face it, we all have a quiet little voice inside that says, “It's wrong to hit a child.” We tell our children that it is wrong to hit a child, and hit them for doing it.... sigh. Is it just a coincidence that the GC church is so authoritarian? Spanking children is the HEART of the matter. Just think about it, the GC church is obsessed with total obedience of child to the parent. Is it any wonder that this extends so well into the parents unquestioned  obedience to the pastor? This authoritarianism can be traced to the greater fundamentalist christian community and has its roots in the protestant traditions of our country.

We let children be hit, because it happens out of sight and out of mind. If it is a truly a good method of child rearing than it should not be hidden behind closed doors. We try to ease our troubled consciences  by justifying our behavior with religions promises, but we don't look to see how our choices  of punishment have turned out. I am a testament to the failure of christian discipline and there are countless others like me who have scars from their encounters with abuse.

I hope for a world where we choose life and love, over death and fear. A world where violence is not celebrated among us. Where moral choice can be liberated from the abusive teachings that embrace total control and obedience. I don't believe in armageddon, maybe that is why I want to promote life. I don't believe in hell, so why would I choose to inflict pain on a child? It feels good to have a cause to advocate for. They have their Great Commission and every person they save will be taught to strike their future children and obey there pastor without question. That is Authoritarianism. it has been thriving in this country for a long time and will not die willingly.

I get tired too, yes I do. I need to rant on this online forum because I feel so powerless to affect change in the hearts and minds of my family and neighbors. In the end all I can do is bring up my own children the best I know how, to love them, say a good word for life to all who care to listen and to join in with the conversations in the social marketplace of  ideas. 
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"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #130 on: April 16, 2011, 12:10:29 pm »

Agreed.  I should clarify, I am not tired of THIS debate or you as a participant, but tired of the spanking debate in general.  Whenever I post anything or speak of it, so many people are such diehard proponents that I end up offending people or alienating people.  I agree with you.  What I look for is people who had similar experiences and who recognize that good people make poor choices and many times get by with not a problem.  But sometimes good people make poor choices and their world falls apart.  I think as a community, we need to be encouraging responsive and attached parents.  I think we would all benefit from looking at Christ's example with children.  Many time all children need or want is more time with a parent.  And we (I) don't always give that to them, when that would solve so many things before they even happen.  In addition, so many "bad" behaviors of kids are developmental and they grow out of them.  I find that many of my children's "bad" behaviors are either developmental or actual disability.  Only occasionally do they actually do something willful. But when they do, it's BAD!   Undecided  I feel like I compounded problems early on with spanking. 
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« Reply #131 on: June 15, 2011, 09:05:35 am »

It had been a long years since I have spanked either one of my children, (daughter 16 and son 13). My daughter has one out of control of a attitude problem. I don't think spanking has a good effect on teens. They don't learn from it. It will  just make them feel like they are bad person. Getting spanked could cause a child to be fearful of the spanker.

I prefer finding other methods of disciplining children which is more acceptable and pleasant. Most of the time I prefer grounding and and open communication with my children. One alternative method that also worked for my out of control daughter was sending her to a boarding schools for problem teenager.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 09:29:43 pm by angelacraig » Logged

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« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2011, 06:56:07 am »

     I am looking for current teaching on spanking and the obey policy for GCM family.  Is this something that is just taught by listening to their teachings or do they hand out information?  I am tring to help a family that is very much into GCM and their child raising advice. I hear the obey word alot to their two children who are very young and just don't know how to help or approach them with the right words. Love will do more than any spanking. Thank you
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #133 on: June 25, 2011, 09:46:20 pm »

     Is this something that is just taught by listening to their teachings or do they hand out information?  

I think both. The verse they base their child rearing on is Ephesians 6:1: "Children obey your parents in the Lord for this is right." that is why a GC parent says the word Obey over and over....  Remember, I am a liberal who thinks children should have some choice in what they do so take my advice with a grain of salt.  Tongue

"Train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6 This is the heart of the GC model:

Quote
“How can you ensure that you pass on to your children your passion for following the Lord and the advancement of His Kingdom?”

(Rick Whitney http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/resources.html)

This is a core of their view on parenting as training program for your children; To save the world from being lost. That is why there are so many  big families, all the more soldiers to fight the battles. (Cringe) Sad

The good news is kids are very strong. Over the years children have had to put up with all kinds parents, not to say that there are not emotional scars left....  At least I had parents who said, "I Love you."

GC parents will say that every day. Smiley That is a good point. They believe Spanking is good for their children too. Remember  we are talking about twenty swats on a exposed buttocks or a wooden spoon slap on the palm of the hand.

I do have a wooden spoon in the house I use in cooking, I don't like leaving it on the table because It makes me uncomfortable: bad memories. Sad

« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 09:51:27 pm by Captain Bible » Logged

"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
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« Reply #134 on: June 25, 2011, 10:03:11 pm »


Quote
And maybe my last reason for believing in these messages is that I am still teamed with the same people that God used to see us saved many years ago.  This material is what you all taught me.  It is an honor to be linked with the people of God. 

RW (http://www.gcnwdads.com/pages/resources.html)

Nothing has changed. Cry    They are using the same teachings from McCotter days, so sad. 
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"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
Linda
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« Reply #135 on: June 25, 2011, 10:44:29 pm »

Quote from: RW
And maybe my last reason for believing in these messages is that I am still teamed with the same people that God used to see us saved many years ago. This material is what you all taught me.

Quote from: From the material that the people he teamed with back in the day used that is still being used according to RW
On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands, necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child wounding like he has a broken leg.

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

I like McCotter's use of the word "necessarily". I mean, you might have a bloody mess, but, you know, not necessarily!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 10:46:36 pm by Linda » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #136 on: June 28, 2011, 07:00:57 am »

I had forgotten how awful those sermons were.   Shocked

There is something very alarming about people who believe that and say it so nonchalantly, knowing that no one in the audience or their social group will disagree with them.

I wonder if any of their kids feel bitter or sad about their upbringing.  Even if they don't I certainly feel sad for them.  Childhood can be about fun and adventure or teaching kids about life in a really loving and nurturing way.  I don't understand why kids need this kind of discipline. 
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Linda
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« Reply #137 on: June 28, 2011, 07:39:17 am »

Quote from: Agatha
There is something very alarming about people who believe that and say it so nonchalantly, knowing that no one in the audience or their social group will disagree with them.
So true.

No GC leader has ever taken a stand against any of the many unsound teachings of Jim McCotter. No elder has ever corrected Jim's bad teaching or the bad teaching of any other GC elder, for that matter.

This is NOT accountability. "Plurality" in GC, does not work no matter how much they say it does. There is no meaningful accountability when it comes to what is taught.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 10:45:16 am by Linda » Logged

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Linda
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« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2014, 08:35:37 am »

Have you all seen mention of Great Commission in the recent World Magazine article on the Pearls?

http://www.worldmag.com/2014/04/to_train_up_a_pharisee

"Joy Havlik heard about To Train Up a Child when she was homeschooling six of her children, including a first-grader struggling with phonics, while also trying to keep an eye on her two mobile toddlers. She and her husband, Steve, were involved in a Great Commission Church and then a Bill Gothard homeschooling group, both of which emphasized the importance of spanking and strict discipline. Their eight children are now grown, and they are no longer involved in either group. She now says, “Some of the stuff we were taught was definitely over the top.”

Anyone know of Great Commission has issued a statement distancing themselves from this?
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« Reply #139 on: May 06, 2014, 10:45:47 am »

WCCC in DesMoines advocates that the married women read the book Created to be His Help Meet by Debi Pearl. From what I know about how they discipline their kids there, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they read and follow the advice in To Train Up a Child as well.

The (unspoken) goal is to keep your kids (and your women) in submissive obedience. Don't allow them to use the brain that God gave them to think things through or ask honest questions; just blindly follow the parents orders, husband's commands, and the pastors' teaching. And then pile on the guilt and fear by saying that this is God's will for them so if they don't follow orders, God is not pleased. The dysfunction in these Great Commission "churches" is astounding! (And incredibly cultish in so many ways.)
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