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Author Topic: Spanking  (Read 127813 times)
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2010, 12:16:20 am »

Worst quote from the sermon:
Quote
For those of you who say you aren't going to spank your children.  God says, that's because you hate them.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 07:45:47 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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LucyB
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« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2010, 07:11:30 am »

This sermon makes me mad because it advocates such poor parenting. I was spanked as a child, and I spanked my kids when they were little. I spanked occasionally when they were 2 and 3, rarely when they were 4 and 5, and hardly ever after that. The type of behavior that merits a spanking is when a child is completely out of control and destructive, such as angrily hurling a toy at a sibling. I'm no parenting expert, but this should be common sense. This sermon gives spanking a bad name. When he said he spanked his 9-year-old an average of three times a week, I was shocked! What do these kids do? Shoot off firecrackers in the back yard three times a week? Then when he told the story of spanking his two-year-old because she didn't come to him, I was so sad for her. What a bully!!! He did not provide any incentive to make coming to him interesting or important to her. She was probably afraid to come, and confused. Teaching children that they don't have the right to make decisions for themselves is creepy and weird.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 07:15:01 am by LucyB » Logged
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2010, 07:48:40 am »

Lucy, I know!  I was shocked that he considered 3 times a week for a nine year old rare.  Also he said that spanking a 13 year old isn't wrong, but that he doesn't need to do it because they "get it".  In other words, don't be afraid to spank a 13 year old if they don't get it.  I don't think he realizest that many, many, many people consider themselves "parents who spank" when they've spanked their child maybe 10 times throughout an entire childhood. I know people who consider themselves "parents who spank" when they've spanked their child once!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 08:51:02 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2010, 08:46:50 am »

Another weird quote:
Not spanking your children will make them more susceptible to the devil.


That story about the two year old was sad!  This is horrible!  I'm shocked that they put that online.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 08:50:00 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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calgal
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« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2010, 12:26:26 pm »

I got thinking about how on this tape, Kurt inserts the word "spakining" for every bible verse which uses the word "discipline" with no reference to the original meaning in the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek text.  Oh, yes, I forgot, these guys have no seminary training!

So, I searched on the Internet and found an interesting site which goes into some historical references of how the scripture was interpreted in terms of spanking and child rearing from St. Augustine to Calvinists to others ... interesting stuff ... check it out:
http://parentingfreedom.com/quotes-discipline/

I found this very interesting piece on the old testament meaning of "rod" ....

"The book, Nurturing Children in the Lord by Dr. Jack Fenemma, was published by the Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company back in 1977. Dr. Fenemma does not say that the Bible forbids spanking, but he does say the original text makes the use of spanking uncertain. Regarding the rod verses, he wrote,

“There is no doubt that these references support the directive stated many times in Scripture that parents are to correct their children from wrongdoing. The use of the word “rod” certainly indicates that nurture and discipline are to take place. But whether the use of the word rod also indicates that the form of correction is to be a spanking is less certain. There are a few cautionary notes that one should make before establishing that as a rigid conclusion.”
Jack Fennema

“First, the Book of Proverbs is written in the form of Hebrew poetry, a form that often uses vivid imagery. In other Old Testament books there are uses of “shebet”, the Hebrew word for “rod”, which obviously calls for a symbolic interpretation of the rod:

“Oh, Assyria, the rod of my anger, the staff of my fury! (Isa. 10:5)”

“…and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth… (Isa 11:4)”

“I am the man who has seen affliction under the rod of his wrath. (Lam. 3:1)”

“Usually one would look to the context for a clearer understanding of a word, but the Book of Proverbs provides no such context for the use of the word “rod”. For the most part, the individual proverbs stand alone, unrelated to those which precede and follow. One must be cautious, then, about translating these references to the word rod as commands to physically correct a child. They are, indeed, commands to chasten or redirect him, but to be more specific than that is to read into the texts that which is not necessarily there.”
Jack Fennema

“Secondly, all references to using the rod on children are found in the Old Testament. The Greek word for rod, “rhabdos”, is used eleven times in the New Testament and never to command the physical correction of the spanking of children. Indeed, “rhabdos” is used very meaningfully in 1 Corinthians 4:21, where it obviously symbolizes chastening as a general directive to follow rather than as a specific endorsement of spanking.”
Jack Fennema

“While Proverbs does instruct, then, that correction must be exercised, it gives no clear command as to how it should be done. On the whole, the Bible teaches that genuine chastening or correction is that which attempts to return the person to the proper way of life.”
Jack Fennema
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Rebekah
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« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2010, 04:08:50 pm »

Thanks for posting these, calgal. That's helpful to know that the N.T. never says anything about spanking. It does seem like shaky biblical evidence to rely primarily on Proverbs for spanking, especially in light of these explanations. Thanks!
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Rebekah
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« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2010, 10:15:20 pm »

I'm listening to Kurt J's spanking message. Oh my! It's definitely crazy but very similar arguments to the horrible pro-spanking materials we got.

Oh, and apparently, God spanks us. Hm, I wonder how that works. Does Jesus do it? An angel?

Let's pass a law against spanking; Kurt J says he'd up and move if we did. Now we have a plan!  Wink
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Rebekah
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« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2010, 10:45:58 pm »

Kurt J says that "discipline" always means spanking in the Bible. So parents should always spank their kids--not give them timeouts. But then he goes on to say that God "spanks" us by using natural consequences and a guilty conscience. If it's good enough for God, then it's good enough for me!

Here's another head-scratcher. He's saying that a lot of Christians have this incorrect view of God as this authoritarian figure who punishes us with bad things in our lives when we do bad things (think Job here). He really wishes Christians didn't think of God that way.

Boy, that is a conundrum. I wonder where that idea is coming from. I bet he sure wishes there was something he could do to change that perception of God.

Hm, so let's see if we can work this out. Kids get spanked every single time they disobey a parent, have a bad attitude, or show a strong will. Many adults imagine their heavenly father is like their earthly father. Let's see...what are kids in 20 years?

Oh well, too tough for me. I guess someone a lot more godly than me will have to seek God for the answer.  Wink
« Last Edit: January 17, 2010, 10:50:29 pm by Rebekah » Logged
calgal
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« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2010, 12:22:04 am »

This logic is not for the critical thinking types ...

I'd like to get my hands on the email he references that he will send to any church member ... which details when, how, where, etc. in detail in which to administer spanking ... what nerve!

calgal
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2010, 08:00:12 am »

I remember a leader telling me he didn't get many spiritual "spankings" because he did everything God wanted him too! 

What a misunderstanding of God and the Bible!!
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Linda
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« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2010, 08:13:29 am »

Quote from: Hebrews 12:7
God is treating you as children, for what child is there whom a parent doesn't discipline.
The word discipline translates "instruction", not "spank". You don't even need to know Greek, you just need to open up your trusty interlinear translation that your husband gave for your birthday just after you left GC because you were having a hard time with the word "obey" in Hebrews 13:17 and he wanted you to see what the word "obey" translated to so you could compare it to the word "obey" in Colossians 3...among other things. Smiley

About the spanking sermon. I listened to most of it. Where to begin? Probably I will begin and end with the example of "training" the daughter to come to him. Horrible, awful, sad. That example alone undoes the message (which, to be fair, made a few good points). I believe it is unbiblical for this reason:

Quote from: Matthew 18:5-10
Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
Note that the verses proclaiming "woe to the one by whom the temptation comes" happen when Jesus is speaking of little children.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:07:20 am by Linda » Logged

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Immortal_Raven
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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2010, 10:05:17 am »

Your post brings up a related topic Linda.  You say the word discipline translates to "instruction", not "spank".  GC does not advocate seminary training in any way, shape or form, so the leaders are not versed in Hebrew and Greek as many branches of religion are.  My dad is a second-career Lutheran minister, and he had to learn the Hebrew and Greek in order to study the Bible in the original language and context.  Many branches of Christianity have similar requirements.  My point is that they don't know how some passages in the Bible should be interpreted.  Therefore, they interpret certain passages in order to best fit their own mentality.

I've seen a T'shirt with this slogan, "The beatings will continue until morale improves."  I thought about it again and thought of GC at the same time.  That seems like their parenting concept in a nutshell.  This stuff makes me so angry.  I get the urge to watch a GC pastor or elder like a hawk until I catch them doing something wrong in my eyes.  Then take a switch and start spanking them with it.  Then they can feel how their kids feel.  Maybe a bit over the line, but I find the best way to debate or argue something with someone is to use their own methods and tactics against them.

On a side note, Hats off to Calgal for raising three boys on her own.  I'm the eldest of three boys and I believe both of my parents have far more gray hair than they should.

-Immortal_Raven
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calgal
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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2010, 08:10:20 pm »

Thanks Immortal Raven! 

When I was reading your post, my oldest son (21) was by my side and read it too ... and gave me a big smooch on the cheek!  Life is good.  I'd rather raise kids on my own, with love, kindness and tolerance than in a dual parent household where there is none.  Our 'blanket time' became picnics in the park where they were free to roam on and off the blanket .....

Calgal
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Rebekah
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« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2010, 09:14:49 pm »

Aw, calgal, I love that! I love that your son kisses you on the cheek and that you turned an ugly thing into something fun and beautiful.

Immortal Raven, that's such a true t-shirt. Horrible and true.

They have such an inconsistent view of things. When you're a kid, the evil needs to be beaten out of you. But what about when you're an adult? Why don't they just start self-flagellation if they believe so strongly in the ability of the rod to cure the soul's evil?
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BTDT
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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2010, 02:16:16 pm »

Calgal, you rock.
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Linda
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2010, 11:07:46 am »

I just learned last night that "blanket time" (with a special blanket) was taught in MN. Was that an Ezzo/Growing Kids God's Way thing, or a GC thing? Anyone know?

Also, I learned that some set the example of placing towels over children's mouths when they were spanked to stifle the screams. Was that taught nationally?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 11:18:22 am by Linda » Logged

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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2010, 11:29:51 am »

 Cry   Very, very sad.
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wastedyearsthere
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2010, 12:45:27 pm »

I remember being taught to close windows before spanking and not to go to doctors that day if you were to bruise the child!

TERRIBLE
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Linda
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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2010, 03:05:53 pm »

Was bruising recommended?
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Rebekah
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« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 10:13:18 pm »

I don't think it was recommended, but it might have been thought of as inevitable. People were actually advised to not go to the doctor if there were bruises. What I mean is, if your kid had bruises from spanking and you had a regular doctor's appointment, they suggest you cancel it so people wouldn't get the "wrong" idea. Ha!

Our friends also talked about getting "Christian" doctors who "understood" about spanking.
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