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Author Topic: Spanking  (Read 124237 times)
Linda
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« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2010, 01:28:33 pm »

Agatha, I didn't take what you said as negative on homeschooling. I assumed you were talking about books by the Pearls and Ezzo's being sold at homeschool conventions. I don't know much about how the vendors are chosen at homeschool conventions, but from what I know about the MN convention, vendors merely rent space. I don't think much screening is done beyond assuming everyone is a Christian. I remember seeing books by the people who think the Sun revolves around the Earth, and just passing by that booth. That's what I would do at an Ezzo or Pearl booth--well, actually, now I might just stop and read what they teach! Lot's of homeschool people are World Magazine people and I remember years ago, World did a rather negative piece on the Ezzos and spanking infants. Anyway, I'm really glad I never heard of the Ezzos or Pearls or Jim McCotter when my kids were little.
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Immortal_Raven
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« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2010, 06:56:01 am »

Yeah, I think we got offtrack for the thread.  I've just never seen homeschooling done right firsthand.  I know there are good ones out there, same with charter schools.  I just object to GC's reasoning for homeschooling in the discipline arena and to a lesser degree in the indoctrination arena. 

-Immortal_Raven
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Linda
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« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2010, 10:14:10 am »

Quote
I've just never seen homeschooling done right firsthand.
I'm sorry to hear this.
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2010, 12:08:23 pm »

E. Ray Moore, another GC elder in the 1970's - 1980's, wrote a book and founded an anti-public school movement ("Let My People Go").  He seemed to see Satan behind every school teacher.  Fear mongering at its worst.  And misuse of the Old Testament at its best.

Remember, the passage in the Old Testament ("raise a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it") is not a promise, it is a general principle of life.  Moreover, the passage is not talking about obligating God to give a child saving faith, as the passage does not say, "and when he is old he will remain saved and in the faith."  The passage is a general principle about civil, productive, and mature behavior as opposed to teaching a child to be a slackard or a brawler.

Faith is a gift from God to the child, not a gift from the parent to the child.  We cannot save our children, only God can do that.  We can train and teach, but God does the choosing and the saving.
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Linda
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« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2010, 12:17:34 pm »

Was E. Ray Moore related to Raymond & Dorothy Moore--the Home Grown Kids peopls? They were Seventh Day Adventists, I believe.
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EverAStudent
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« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2010, 12:24:35 pm »

Quote from: Linda
Was E. Ray Moore related to Raymond & Dorothy Moore--the Home Grown Kids peopls? They were Seventh Day Adventists, I believe.
No.  Dorothy and Raymond were the names of the Moore's oldest children.  However, I do not think the Home Grown Kids people are their children.  Based on a quick internet search, I think these are coincidently named but entirely different people.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 12:55:16 pm by EverAStudent » Logged
steelgirl
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« Reply #86 on: October 01, 2010, 01:35:12 pm »

Have parents who have bought lock stock and barrow into this abusive material been reported to social service agencies.  Have social service agencies investigated some of these parents?

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Captain Bible
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« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2010, 05:34:37 pm »

Unfortunately spanking your children is entirely legal in this country. If you strike an adult that is battery but if you strike a child that is perfectly fine?

When does it become abuse? What I experienced was abuse. Should I report my parents, or let it go? Would I ever let my parents babysit my kids? I would be lying if I said I didn't have reservations about that.

How do you deal with parents who spank their children in the GC way? How do you help them see the error of it all?

I would love to know how to do that for the sake of my nephews and nieces.  But I don't go to the church any more, I quit why would they listen to me?

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"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
G_Prince
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« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2010, 09:11:58 pm »

Unfortunately spanking your children is entirely legal in this country. If you strike an adult that is battery but if you strike a child that is perfectly fine?

When does it become abuse? What I experienced was abuse. Should I report my parents, or let it go? Would I ever let my parents babysit my kids? I would be lying if I said I didn't have reservations about that.

How do you deal with parents who spank their children in the GC way? How do you help them see the error of it all?

I would love to know how to do that for the sake of my nephews and nieces.  But I don't go to the church any more, I quit why would they listen to me?



I think people change when they are lead to their own contradictions rather than a head on ideological battle. I think it is inportant to let them know that your kids are off limits to that kind of treatment and tell them why. They may never change their mind but at least you've introduced them to a different perspective and might broaden their view on the subject. Some of the biggest paradigm shifts I've undergone is listening to other explain what they think in a non confrontational way.

However, if you have family who are activly abusing their kids at the direction of the church, then it may be time to say something. Maybe they won't listen but who knows? It might be worth a shot.

Unfortuantly kids are legally their parent's proporty for better or worse and in GCx I think it is generally for worse. Kids get no respect...they are the screens on which parents can project their ideological schemes. That's why the more kids you have the more you can get your ideology on the market (theoretically). In practice I think this is largely backfireing on GCx (despite what Rick Whitney might say). Most of the GCx kids I know have low self esteme and little ambiton. If you've had your will spanked out of you it's hard to achieve anything including reaching the world for GCx.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 09:13:41 pm by G_Prince » Logged

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Captain Bible
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« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2010, 07:57:30 am »

I think the kids self esteem is often tied to their parents, after all the leaders think they are doing a great job with their kids. What they are worried about are all the other kids in their congregations who “leave the faith”. Rick W. is spearheading a rallying call to save the youth! Cheesy What are they going to try next? Are they going to  take children from one home to be raised by more “Godly” parents in another? They have tried practically every thing else, Sunday school, teen conferences, youth groups, parenting seminars, threats, you name it.  

Maybe they will revert to Oliver twist style youth homes where they can train the children to live just how they deem fit. Group A will go to this collage to infiltrate it for Christ, group B will go to this collage and so on. If they could get away with it I know they would do it in a heart beat, heck they already have a breeding program for their kids. I remember one pastor telling his girls he was going to choose their husbands for them, and in all honesty the do: If you want to marry a pastors' daughter talk to her dad.

Children obey your parents in the Lord, for it is right...

And If you don't you'll get spanked.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 08:07:02 am by Captain Bible » Logged

"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2010, 08:31:02 am »

I'm of the mindset that spanking does not necessarily mean abuse.  However, I have experienced mostly negatives in regards to spanking.  Even more alarming though than my experiences, have been the experiences shared by those who are really messed up sexually by being spanked as a child.  It's actually more common than you might think.  I have come to the conclusions that children's private parts are off limits.  Period.  I had no idea the ramifications of this practice!  It's so strange when you think of it.  I would call the police if someone "lovingly" touched my child's buttocks.  I would want to punch them and give them the full extent of the law.  But to hurt a child's buttocks is acceptable?  Really?  How strange!  The buttocks are sensitive and without being too inappropriate here, sexually sensitive.  It's odd that groups that have such extreme control over the world of sex (control the thoughts, control the relationships, control the marriage, etc), why this emphasis on actually hurting a sensitive part of the body in close proximity to genitalia and also interelated to the sexual functions of the body.  I had never thought of that before!  But after hearing the testimonial of women who received the classic "Dobson" style spanking and grew up to have considerable shame and dysfunction, it is now clear to me that this should be avoided.  Spanking also seems a humiliating sign of submission to me.  How much more submissive and vulnerable can a person get than to bend over and place their vulnerable parts out there to be hurt?  And by someone who loves them?  I've done a 180 on this after spanking my children early on.  I began to look at their faces and listen to their cries, where before I kept the image in my head of what they SHOULD be and what I could MAKE them be.  It's not been easy to find other methods.  And again, I can't say I think spanking is inherently abuse... more just that when analyzed it's a very odd, somewhat archaic practice that makes me uncomfortable and is sometimes turned into abuse.  I know Christian pastors who unapologetically spanked their children 100 times a day and 200 swats at a time.  These men are respected and currently leading churches.  Tell me, is that really what Jesus would do?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 08:41:59 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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Linda
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« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2010, 10:10:55 am »

Quote
I know Christian pastors who unapologetically spanked their children 100 times a day and 200 swats at a time.  These men are respected and currently leading churches.
Whoa, that's horrible and obviously the spanking thing is not working for this guy.

I agree with you that spanking does not necessarily mean abuse and has a place on occasion. As a young mother, the thing that was the hardest and most confusing for me was not dealing with my children's disobedience, but dealing with the expectations of those adult Christians who were watching me and ready to judge. It is very hard to think clearly when "grown ups" are looking on with disapproval. I remember one time a child of mine was learning how to walk. Said child was walking around a coffee table. In normal situations, everyone would say, "Wow, good job, way to go, "Bobby/Susie"!" As my child was walking around the table he/she reached for a candle (a really ugly candle with the fake greenery around it, I might add). Subconsciously, I picked up the candle and placed it on a bookshelf out of reach of my child. The person (a relative and a pastor) whose house we were at, went over, took the candle, put it back on the table, looked up at me and said, "Let me show you how to train a child," and proceeded to spank my child on the hand in front of a group of people.

My husband was out of the room at the time. I was 26. Now, I would walk up to that person and say, "How dare you," but when you are young and the person is an older relative on your husband's side, that is a very intimidating thing to do. We opted to stay away from that person's house for many years unless it was a "necessary" family gathering.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2010, 01:37:57 pm »

I've heard of that school of thought before that you "train" the child and teach boundaries instead of "childproofing" a home.  It doesn't really take into consideration though that children are just beginning to discover the world.  Do we really want the first time they reach out and touch something they find beautiful to be a time of receiving pain?  Again, what a strange concept when you think about it.  I remember a study that showed that spanking cut down on curiousity in children.  If that's true that is sad.  That said, it all flows into the concept of unquestioning obedience.  I believe in boundaries, to be sure.  Life is full of them, but so many are cultural and not moral.  And why shouldn't we teach our children to challenge and question?  And why is a pastor who believes in such excessive harmful discipline still a pastor?  What are these people thinking? 
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2010, 06:16:43 am »

 A pastor spanking his child 100 times a day is abuse.  Angry

That child will be scared for his or her life.

That child will learn to  lie to protect themselves from pain.

That child will have emotional problems in adulthood.

That child will struggle with anger and depression. 

That child will be more likely to strike another child.

Striking a child is wrong, but is it abuse?
Most parents think of it as a last course of action.
GCC parents think of it as the First course of action.
If you spank your child once is that abuse?
How about ten times?
How about one hundred?
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"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2010, 06:48:55 am »

These kids are now leaders in their parents' movement.  All of them have stayed with their parents.  Parents view this as success.  I view this as never learning to question or think for themselves.  Such kind and gentle people... how can they spank kids like that?  That's the same "loving" family that loved God, the Rod, and your Child's Bod, and in the late 90's, early OO's were insisting their toddler sit perfectly through church with no toys or else a spanking.  They suggested squeezing baby's hands for patting a mom's face because that was HITTING.  How sickly ironic.  Did I mention the baby they wanted me to spank had brain damage, a feeding tube and had just gotten out of the hospital after being there 4 months?  They are so "benevolently" abusive.  Looking back, when they told me to spank my sick baby, I should have left, but me being brainwashed stayed another 6 years.  Sooooo stupid.
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2010, 07:02:48 am »

My dad is one of those parents, People in our church always said we were the model family. funny, I would never have come up with that myself? Every one in church said we were so lucky to have such great parents, I guess great parents hurt their kids. What people in the church were really saying was this "You are Trapped."

To any one out there reading this right now, if you think striking your child on the behind with a dowel rod once a or twice a day is going to save there soul from hell be warned. It is a LIE. all you are doing is swat by swat driving a wedge between you and your child.

Things your child will learn from spanking:


If you love someone you strike them.

If you strike someone you get struck.

If you tell the truth you get struck.

In an argument someone is always at fault and must be struck.

all the places in the house where he/she will be less noticed.

Not to scream when in pain.  Embarrassed

I have nightmares now where my brother is crying out in pain behind a closed door and I am so angry that I am trying to kick down the door but it will not budge, I will scream threats through the door, pound on it in rage, than I will wake up shaking in fear and anger.

Go ahead spank your child. It's what the bible tells you to do after all. Obey your pastor your child will turn out just great, like me. Angry

« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 07:32:38 am by Captain Bible » Logged

"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2010, 07:10:47 am »

I am so sorry, Captain Bible.  I'm also sorry that I never had the nerve to speak out.  Of course coming from my own background, I did not know what to do.  I felt relieved that I could view my parents as "normal" even when they spanked us with belts and from 10-150 swats.  GC helped me be in denial and "comfort" that my parent's weren't doing something wrong, that spanking like that was normal. 
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Captain Bible
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« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2010, 07:28:02 am »

quote: AgathaL'Orange
These kids are now leaders in their parents' movement.  All of them have stayed with their parents.  Parents view this as success.  I view this as never learning to question or think for themselves.  Such kind and gentle people... how can they spank kids like that?  That's the same "loving" family that loved God, the Rod, and your Child's Bod, and in the late 90's, early OO's were insisting their toddler sit perfectly through church with no toys or else a spanking.  They suggested squeezing baby's hands for patting a mom's face because that was HITTING.  How sickly ironic.  Did I mention the baby they wanted me to spank had brain damage, a feeding tube and had just gotten out of the hospital after being there 4 months?  They are so "benevolently" abusive.  Looking back, when they told me to spank my sick baby, I should have left, but me being brainwashed stayed another 6 years.  Sooooo stupid.


I can't even believe it.... I can, but how do they even justify that. How is it in any way loving to think of spanking that child, even by their own standards?

I guess for them spanking is the pill that fixes all the problems of parenting. It's just too bad. I'm glad you made it out, even if it took six years.  Smiley

Family is more than perfect obedience to imperfect parents.    



  
 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 07:29:36 am by Captain Bible » Logged

"When you divide the land by lot as an inheritance, you must set aside a donation to the Lord, a holy portion of the land, eight and one-third miles long and six and two-thirds miles wide. This entire tract of land will be holy." Ezekiel 45: 1
AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2010, 08:52:25 am »

For the record, I didn't spank my sick baby even though RW suggested that again when my chiild was about 2 and other people did as well.  I was asking questions (Why to them, I don't know) about how to teach a child with special needs.  I was so STUPID!  Why would I ask them?  The only thing I can come up with now is that I was taught that the Bible holds all the wisdom we need to know.  Dumb!  I should have left that horrible church, joined a normal, accepting, inclusive playgroup, and never looked back.  GC stunted me as a mom.  I just had no idea about normal socialization of kids.  I tried to start a playgroup, but no one would come.  I don't know if it was because my son had special needs or what.  We were even asked to keep him out of the nursery at age 3 because "other parents were worried he might hurt their kids".  So strange because he was really sweet.  Once the pastor told me about another family that allowed their autistic teenager to act like a child.  The pastor felt like the parents needed to turn him onto "a man" and not to tell such unseemly silly jokes (not vulgar just silly... like slapstick jokes). Looking back, I just think, "What a jerk!"  Such ignorance about disability!  That boy was a charming autistic young man.  Truly a nice person.  I'm sure he would never hit a baby unlike the manly people running the church!   Such judgment towards others.  Let's all just beat the brain damage out of them!  Brilliant idea.  
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 09:03:04 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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ResistingTheResistance
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« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2010, 10:16:54 am »

I can't speak for any other states, but I happen to know that the law in Kansas is that you're allowed 3 swats with the hand, and you cannot leave marks or use objects (belt, stick, etc.) to discipline your children.  Anything else is subject to investigation by social services if reported.
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