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Rebekah
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« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2010, 10:15:07 pm »

And, oh, covering kids' mouths!!!! So now you're beating her and suffocating her at the same time. How do people's moral compasses get so **** up that they think this is ok? Brainwashing, mind control, serious social pressure, I guess, because parents in normal situations would KNOW that this is wrong.
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MovedOn
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« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2010, 10:39:08 pm »

We tried something called "play pen time" but not blanket time.  I believe we got the idea from Ezzo's "Babywise" book. (The book was recommended by some MN GC friends of ours at the time.)  You put your happy child in the play pen with a few toys and then go to another room, out of the child's sight.  Basically if your child cries, ignore them, and gradually build up the time you keep the child in the playpen. It did not involve any swatting or spanking.  I only did it a few times with our first son, and then realized there was something really wrong about ignoring his cries of loneliness.  It's surprising that as I type this I can remember the feelings I felt when I left my son in the playpen, crying because he just wanted me to pick him up and be with him. It was awful.  We also had problems with other things we tried or read about in that book when our son was a newborn, so why we kept on referring to Ezzo's methods is beyond me. We were first time parents, stressed out and tired, and trying to do the right thing, maybe trying to please GC rather than please God. Eventually though, we came to our senses.

As a result of our negative experiences with Ezzo's Babywise book, we did not attend a "Growing Kids God's Way" small group. We threw that "Babywise" book and all of it's recommendations in the garbage and never looked back.  I have more to say about Babywise, so perhaps I will post a new thread rather than go on and on about that on this spanking thread.

I don't remember bruising ever being recommended with spanking in any conversations I had with GC friends. That's awful!
Also, I had never heard of putting a towel over your child's mouth to stifle their screams while spanking either - WOW, so sad!
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Immortal_Raven
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« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2010, 10:15:18 am »

A towel over their mouth?  What the ****?!  It's bad enough that they're bruising the child, now they have to scare the child as well.  Think about it, a one or two year-old can't even dress themself.  All the ones I've met including my own son hate it when you're dressing/undressing them, and the shirt gets stuck on their head.  They can't breath which in turn induces a panic, causing them to cry or sob.  How is spanking and suffocating going to help?

Also, I'm no doctor or anatomy expert, but wouldn't repeated bruising hamper muscle development?  For that matter, wouldn't blanket time?  Children need that time to run around and play and be active.  A lot of these techniques I'm hearing seem to be more about the parents' convenience than the well-being of the child.

I wish kids came with an instruction manual like furniture and appliances, but they don't.  That's why there are so many parenting methods and books out there.  So don't buy one book and take it as gospel.  Look it over, take it with a grain of salt.  Try to see things through your child's eyes.  Your job as a parent is to teach the child and prepare them to live in the world, but they also teach you.

-Immortal_Raven
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Linda
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« Reply #63 on: January 26, 2010, 07:51:11 am »

Just to clarify on the towel. I was told that the child was given the towel to hold to stifle the screams as opposed to the parent holding the towel over the child's mouth. Slightly better--at least safer. I think it might be an Ezzo thing. Anyone know? I've never read any of their books. Did GC ever do any printed materials on spanking?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:52:57 am by Linda » Logged

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Captain Bible
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2010, 04:41:53 pm »

   I was never told to scream into a towel, but I often would grab a hand towel as I was being spanked and bite down on it. I was told early on that if I should scream  neighbors might hear me and the government  would come "take us away." After that I didn't cry until the pain was too much to bear than I would try my hardest not to scream.

I am the son of a prominent GCC pastor  who was mentored by Jim McCotter. Our family was going to be a shining light to all the parents of the world as the model family. I was spanked frequently, perhaps once a day. Every time I was spanked I felt shame, gilt and fear. Other than occasional trips to the grocery store and going out to eat on my birthday, It was the only thing that my parents did with me one on one.

I have never had an honest relationship with them. I tried to avoid direct questions and would tell vague lies to protect myself. I would find places in the house to be out of the way, where I could hide. I never felt truly safe.

Spanking was always humiliating for me and it had a twisted sexual undertone. I felt a deep Shame, like I was dirty and my body was bad and sinful. I believe bare bottom spanking was for me a kind of sexual abuse. It was abhorrent and demeaning  and the scary part is that I have always known what my parents where doing was Wrong. But guess what would have happened if I had told them? We would    have gone right into the bathroom for a spanking.

Spanking is only the focal point of the whole GCC parenting style. We would receive a lecture after we were spanked usual containing a Proverb or Ephesians 6:1-3. They cared about our obedience more than anything else. In a way I didn't grow up with a father or mother just some coaches who trained me to be a soldier  for Christ.

This soldier left the army a couple years ago but now I  have family who spank their kid. Almost everything at his toddler level is: "no touch." The last time I visited I felt so powerless. The kid hears the word "No" all day long. It is extremely hard to see a child subjected to all of that. I want to say something to them but they are so into GCC it would only strain what little relationship we have.

I felt that I needed to post on this topic. Seeing the circle of abuse continue has brought about a lot of anger. I just hope I can find some constructive outlet for it. Every one has a story every story fills out the picture I hope some of my story will help someone out there think twice about what GCC call's "Discipline."

« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 05:33:43 am by Captain Bible » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2010, 07:50:45 pm »

   I was never told to scream into a towel, but I often would grab a hand towel as I was being spanked and bite down on it. I was told early on that if I should scream  neighbors might hear me and the government  would come "take us away." After that I didn't cry until the pain was too much to bear than I would try my hardest not to scream.

I am the son of a prominent GCC pastor  who was mentored by Jim McCotter. Our family was going to be a shining light to all the parents of the world as the model family. I was spanked frequently, perhaps once a day. Every time I was spanked I felt shame, gilt and fear. Other than occasional trips to the grocery store and going out to eat on my birthday, It was the only thing that my parents did with me one on one.

I have never had an honest relationship with them. I tried to avoid direct questions and would tell vague lies to protect myself. I would find places in the house to be out of the way, where I could hide. I never felt truly safe.

Spanking was always humiliating for me and it had a twisted sexual undertone. I felt a deep Shame, like I was dirty and my body was bad and sinful. I believe bare bottom spanking was for me a kind of sexual abuse. It was abhorrent and demeaning  and the scary part is that I have always known what my parents where doing was Wrong. But guess what would have happened if I had told them? We would    have gone right into the bathroom for a spanking.

Spanking is only the focal point of the whole GCC parenting style. We would receive a lecture after we were spanked usual containing a Proverb or Ephesians 6:1-3. They cared about our obedience more than anything else. In a way I didn't grow up with a father or mother just some coaches who trained me to be a soldier  for Christ.

This soldier left the army a couple years ago but now I  have family who spank their kid. Almost everything at his toddler level is: "no touch." The last time I visited I felt so powerless. The kid hears the word "No" all day long. It is extremely hard to see a child subjected to all of that. I want to say something to them but they are so into GCC it would only strain what little relationship we have.

I felt that I needed to post on this topic. Seeing the circle of abuse continue has brought about a lot of anger. Ijust hope I can find some constructive outlet for it. Every one has a story every story fills out the picture I hope some of my story will help someone out there think twice about what they call "Discipline."



Thank you for your honest post....and welcome aboard captain.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2010, 06:29:58 am »

Captain, I'm so sorry.  I believe that healing is possible over time.  You are right that was not okay for you to be hurt in that way.  It's so difficult to hear how well meaning parents can hurt their children.  Hope and healing is possible.  I have found that anger and processing emotions are the biggest things to work through, but it can be done.  I am doing it right now!  In fact, this afternoon I have an appointment with a counselor (I've been seeing her for several months and the light that is being beamed into my life from clarity of thought feels like a soothing yet energizing balm to this cynical soul).  Talking with someone about it can be really helpful and can give you strategies for dealing with the powerless feelings you are experiencing.

You are welcome here.  I'll say a little prayer for you right now.  (((((hugs)))))
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 06:41:22 am by AgathaL'Orange » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2010, 06:33:41 am »

Quote from: Captain Bible
Every one has a story, every story fills out the picture...
Thanks for telling your story, Captain. I'm sorry for your pain.
Quote from: Captain Bible
I am the son of a prominent GCC pastor who was mentored by Jim McCotter.
I've often pondered how this happens. Young believers, many, by their own admission with a sordid past (sex, drugs, rock & roll..) meet a GC person (in the early days, McCotter and his band of traveling evangelists) and learn that their sins can be forgiven. This is a good thing. Then, the odd twisting happens. They devote their life to the teaching of the man and group who shared the Gospel and not to the Man who gave his life. The Devil is very tricky.

Sadly, those still in leadership in the "movement" have no idea what they are doing and truly believe they are following God in their commitment to the group and it's teachings.




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Rebekah
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« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2010, 06:44:13 pm »

This is really sad, captain, and I'm so sorry you went through this.

2 things stand out as especially heartbreaking:
1. Spanking was one of the only times you got one-on-one attention from your parents.
2. You never felt truly safe.
3. Spanking violated you sexually.

I'm so happy to hear that you're determined to break the cycle. I hope you're finding a way to heal from this trauma, and I hope that some day your parents will be able to repent and ask your forgiveness so that you can begin to build an honest relationship with them.

God, forgive them for they know not what they do!!!
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Immortal_Raven
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« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2010, 10:38:28 am »

Not trying to rehash an old topic/debate, but here's an article I found on Yahoo! relating to spanking.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100412/hl_time/08599198101900

Sorry if the link doesn't work.
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Rebekah
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« Reply #70 on: May 10, 2010, 09:59:38 am »

Aaargh! This isn't adding much to this conversation, but I've been reading the No Greater Joy (Michael and Debi Pearl) website and just need to vent my repulsion and the nauseating feeling they give me. Today I was reading some of their spanking stuff, which is why I'm posting this here.

But everything they advocate--from spanking to submission--makes me want to vomit. Michael comes off as such an arrogant jerk too (No wonder, his wife worships the ground (reverences *puking*) he walks on.).

Does anyone know if they're widely read in GC? I saw a couple of their books at a GC friends' house but didn't know if it was part of a study or just coincidence.
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AgathaL'Orange
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« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2010, 09:37:39 am »

I was wondering that too!  Their writings are absolutely horrible.    They are one of those people that says, "Oh we don't believe in spanking!  We believe in TRAINING."  But they train with a little switch (size should get bigger as child gets older) and hit kids with it.  Infants as well.  Some homeschool groups are so blinded to their faults and continue to sell their abusive garbage at homeschool conventions.  I don't know about GC though.  Ezzo for sure.  The Pearls, I really don't know if they are widely read.  And now that they have "in house" parenting books and conferences... they probably think there stuff is better anyway so I even though the methods might be the same, I wouldn't be surprised if they just push GC stuff (Whitney, Nelson, and Darling stuff).

Edited to add "some homeschool groups" and to clarify that many homeschool groups have stated (including state homeschool groups) that they are OPPOSED to the Pearls.  
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Immortal_Raven
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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2010, 09:57:08 am »

Homeschooling is the subtle way of perpetuating their system.  Two things I've noticed with homeschooled kids is that no matter how smart and bright they are, they are still usually deficient in one area of academics, be it math, science, spelling, etc...  This makes it difficult to be accepted into any college which as we know, is not high on GC's list of priorities.  The other thing is the social skills that they fail to develop.  I went to a Christian school that was isolated enough and I'm still paying the consequences in terms of lack of social etiquette.  I can't imagine homeschool.  Then when the kids go into the real world and try to interact, they are way outside their comfort zone and turn to the church for support and guidance, possibly a career.

I checked the Pearls' website, pretty bad stuff in my humble opinion.  I'll admit I don't know a lot about parenting, but I do know my dad did right by me and my brothers as best he could.  I intend to do the same.  For those people that are interested and on Facebook, Steve Nelson has his own page on parenting called BtoZ parenting.

-Immortal_Raven
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Linda
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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2010, 11:11:13 am »

We have homeschooled our children since 1987. I have never read the Pearl's or the Ezzos. Just to let you know that homeschooling does not equal beating children.

My general opinion on life is to have all sorts of information/literature available to people and let the Holy Spirit guide them into what is correct. I'm pretty sure that the homeschool conventions just rent tables to vendors with the disclaimer that they do not necessarily agree with everything that is sold. They really couldn't possibly read everything. I guess I prefer that to "censorship".

Here's a John Milton quote I like:
"Though all the winds of doctrine were let loose to play upon the earth, so Truth be in the field, we do injuriously by licensing and prohibiting, to misdoubt her strength. Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter."
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« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2010, 11:42:18 am »

Immortal_Raven, I didn't mean to attack you by my last comment. It's just that one of the hardest things to deal with as a long time homeschooler is always having to defend myself in the areas of academics, socialization, etc., and at the same time feeling lumped in with all the "crazies" who homeschool. I am who I am and my kids are who they are. I'm sure we are all deficient in one area or another, but so are public schooled kids. I'm sure we are all not perfect when it comes to socialization, but neither are public schooled kids. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go iron my denim jumper.
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« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2010, 05:01:33 pm »

We've homeschooled since the early '90's...... one child through college with a degree in electrical/computer engineering; a second child graduating from community college in a few weeks with two associate's degrees and a 3.9 something GPA.  One more in college, and one still "in process"......  I think we're doing all right!!  We do/have done sports, music, clubs at church, community service, dance, cooking lessons, ice/roller skating, co-op classes.....  In our family, we often joke that if we did any more "socializing", we'd never get any school work done!

I think it's a pretty huge generalization to say that all homeschooled kids will be "deficient" in some area.  Pretty much everybody that goes to school ANYWHERE will have their strong points and their weak areas; that's definitely not specific to homeschoolers.  Just from my family alone -- my engineer kid obviously excelled at doing all kinds of math; child #2 is the artist who DESPISES math and doesn't even want to try; #3 was pretty much average at most everything except sports; #4, well, we're still learning the strong and weak points.....  God created each of us differently, and those differences are going to show up in school abilities as well as in other areas!
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« Reply #76 on: May 13, 2010, 04:57:24 am »

Not trying to judge homeschooling in general, more the motives behind GC's practices of homeschooling.  My wife is a teacher, so it's her call whether we homeschool or use the public school system here.  She's leaning toward the public schools though.  I'm glad your kids are all doing great, I just haven't met any yet who didn't have issues, social interaction being the most common.  I'll use myself as an example on that one.  I may as well have grown up under a rock for all the real world application my little Christian school gave me. 

The academic issues I've seen weren't necessarily reflective of the child's intelligence, they were more oversights that came back to hurt the child later.  A girl who had been homeschooled until sixth grade came to my school and took a standard spelling test and got 3 right out of 50.  Her parents had never focused on teaching her to spell.  It took her awhile, but she did get back on grade level.  I also had several homeschooled friends in college who had to take remedial courses because the school didn't accept their homeschool curriculum or they tested poorly.  I take it by the success of your kids, you went by the book and made sure that your curriculum was valid and your children would pass the test. 

-Immortal_Raven
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« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2010, 05:02:10 am »

I think it depends on how homeschooling is done.  I've seen it done excellently where the kids are better educated than public school kids and I've seen it done poorly where they lack social skills and have lower academic skills.  I had my kids in a top rated Christian school and when they went to public school they were behind academically!  I think in our case the school wasn't as good as they professed to be.  It was non-accredited -- so in a sense a home school type educational unit. 
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Linda
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« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2010, 05:14:49 am »

Quote
I just haven't met any yet who didn't have issues, social interaction being the most common.
I'm just curious what you mean by this. I work with homeschoolers and homeschooling families on a regular basis and find them quite "normal" and extremely outgoing and contemporary. (Like the 2nd grader who did his expert day presentation in Keynote, complete with sound effects.)

It seems to me that to throw a student into a classroom where everyone is his/her age and competing for grades is negative socialization. The world is full of people of all ages, abilities, personalities. The traditional classroom is very different than the real world and my opinion of it is that, while there may be more "social opportunities" those opportunities are not always positive. I know lots of great people who attend or teach at public schools, but I don't regard "socialization" as one of the benefits of attendance.

Back to the point of this thread. I'm against beating children, punishing infants, or creating arbitrary boundaries (like blanket time) for the sole purpose of teaching your child to sit still and obey.
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« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2010, 01:18:43 pm »

Oh gosh, I'm sorry for painting homeschooling in a bad light.  Rereading my comment, I REALLY PUT MY FOOT IN IT! 

I am a homeschooler!!!  Smiley  I forget that people don't know that on here, so I wasn't thinking that people might think that I think homeschooling is bad.  I think homeschooling is GREAT!  I have no knowledge of a Pearls/GC connection of any kind.  I was just saying that I'm sure many have run across Pearls stuff at local conventions (Where I wish that all Pearls books would be banned for their extreme view of child rearing.) 

My take is that GC uses "inhouse" parenting advice these days.  Nelson and Whitney and Darling.  I'm sure people use others, but that's all I know of that is "endorsed"  Of course back in the day, many people liked Ezzo, but after the hubbub with him... support has dropped.
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