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Author Topic: Spanking  (Read 200003 times)
DarthVader
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« Reply #160 on: November 07, 2018, 10:50:37 am »

I have asked before, but if you are going to advocate against spanking, then show me how you interpret the passages in the Scriptures which deal with that topic.

Please, use solid hermeneutics and not just some personal preferences.

You and GCM seem to be interpreting these Proverbs as commands and completely literally vs. (what I believe is the correct approach) reading them as God intended, which is sharing of general wisdom/principals.

Some examples (from Proverbs):

"Don't cheat your neighbor by moving the ancient boundary markers set up by previous generations" Ch 22 v 28.  Is God telling us an important principal  "to be honest in all our dealing with our neighbors" (what I  believe) or his is really very focused on "boundary markers set up by previous generations" which don't really exist in the United States where surveyed maps have established property lines. If you treat it as a "command" and literally, it's a very narrow one.  Presumably many other ways I could cheat my neighbors that are perfectly fine, right, just leave those boundary markers alone.  - Clearly nonsensical to interpret this as a command.  Haven't seen a lot of focus on boundary markers in church (but a lot on "the rod" Wink)..who is being inconsistent/focused on personal preferences now?

"It is safer to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than to confront a fool caught in foolishess"  Ch 17 v 12 There are many sad examples where meeting the bear was not so safe...do I need to say more - does taking this literally make much sense?

How about this one Prov. 17 v 8 - "A bribe is a lucky charm; whoever gives one will prosper"...Should we expect a GCM focus on the benefits of bribery coming soon...or just "the rod" Wink?

Or this one.."Plans go wrong for lack of advice; many advisers bring success"...pretty sure I can find historical examples where this was not exactly the experience..Does the quality of the advisers matter? It doesn't say that..so if you take it literally...next time you have a plan you really want to succeed, just go round up enough advisers and success is guaranteed..

Or this one.."A fools proud talk becomes a rod that beats him"..Is this the same rod we are supposed to be beating our kids with or a different one  Wink?

You asked for a hermanutic argument not just "personal preference"...My argument is the book of Proverbs was inspired by God to share wisdom and principals. It is not a book of the law, nor is it to be taken literally.  To make "spanking" a law for raising kids implies, to me 1) you are taking "the rod" literally - ok, why not bribery or boundary markers?  2) It implies you see proverbs as a book of law - on what basis? If spanking was a command (vs. one of many options for discipline) why was it not included in the books of law? 

Just sayin the GCM focus on spanking is what seems inconsistent to me..
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Free in Christ
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« Reply #161 on: November 07, 2018, 01:11:56 pm »

A human being, deeply loved by God, just said that their parents would punish them to the point of bleeding and bruising and that it has impacted them deeply psychologically, and the response is asking for proof that this is bad from hermeneutics? This is where internet discussion breaks down. If a living, breathing human was in front of you telling you of their painful experience, I would hope anyone, regardless of belief system, could offer them compassion. If a human child's pain becomes merely an abstraction to step over in an argument you are out to win, there really needs to be some soul searching. I am not out to get into an argument, but I felt the need to stand up for my fellow human.
Again, Reaper, I am so sorry for your pain.
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ReaperofGCM
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« Reply #162 on: November 07, 2018, 04:20:58 pm »

@free in christ

I appreciate your kind words. We may differ on our views of God and the Bible but you are able to view the compassion of a situation and
act accordingly. As you said, this entire internet discussion breaks down partly in thanks to the keyboard warrior on the other end who
can't see much further than their computer monitor.  I didn't think that someone still affiliated with the GCx or Reliant organization of churches would actually have that much of an
under educated view on this situation. That is what I find most dangerous about this situation is that this person might actually procreate at some point
in time.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #163 on: November 08, 2018, 09:18:30 pm »

@pietpoopoo

Are you really that daft? I expected a much more intelligent response rather than referring back to an old outdated book.
Since I am not a Christian and I don't abide by the Bible, here is a great modern day article that ironically appeared
on CNN yesterday! I could care less about providing you an example from the Bible.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/opinions/spanking-american-academy-of-pediatrics-gershoff/index.html

So I will go ahead and take the side of the American Academy of Pediatrics newest recommendations that parents not
"hit, spank or slap their children".

 

Then you can believe fake news over the Word of God. I choose to believe God, Who created humans, including all children.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #164 on: November 08, 2018, 09:25:25 pm »

I have asked before, but if you are going to advocate against spanking, then show me how you interpret the passages in the Scriptures which deal with that topic.

Please, use solid hermeneutics and not just some personal preferences.

You and GCM seem to be interpreting these Proverbs as commands and completely literally vs. (what I believe is the correct approach) reading them as God intended, which is sharing of general wisdom/principals.

Some examples (from Proverbs):

"Don't cheat your neighbor by moving the ancient boundary markers set up by previous generations" Ch 22 v 28.  Is God telling us an important principal  "to be honest in all our dealing with our neighbors" (what I  believe) or his is really very focused on "boundary markers set up by previous generations" which don't really exist in the United States where surveyed maps have established property lines. If you treat it as a "command" and literally, it's a very narrow one.  Presumably many other ways I could cheat my neighbors that are perfectly fine, right, just leave those boundary markers alone.  - Clearly nonsensical to interpret this as a command.  Haven't seen a lot of focus on boundary markers in church (but a lot on "the rod" Wink)..who is being inconsistent/focused on personal preferences now?

"It is safer to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than to confront a fool caught in foolishess"  Ch 17 v 12 There are many sad examples where meeting the bear was not so safe...do I need to say more - does taking this literally make much sense?

How about this one Prov. 17 v 8 - "A bribe is a lucky charm; whoever gives one will prosper"...Should we expect a GCM focus on the benefits of bribery coming soon...or just "the rod" Wink?

Or this one.."Plans go wrong for lack of advice; many advisers bring success"...pretty sure I can find historical examples where this was not exactly the experience..Does the quality of the advisers matter? It doesn't say that..so if you take it literally...next time you have a plan you really want to succeed, just go round up enough advisers and success is guaranteed..

Or this one.."A fools proud talk becomes a rod that beats him"..Is this the same rod we are supposed to be beating our kids with or a different one  Wink?

You asked for a hermanutic argument not just "personal preference"...My argument is the book of Proverbs was inspired by God to share wisdom and principals. It is not a book of the law, nor is it to be taken literally.  To make "spanking" a law for raising kids implies, to me 1) you are taking "the rod" literally - ok, why not bribery or boundary markers?  2) It implies you see proverbs as a book of law - on what basis? If spanking was a command (vs. one of many options for discipline) why was it not included in the books of law? 

Just sayin the GCM focus on spanking is what seems inconsistent to me..

Ok, Darthvader, I like your answer more than the other one. Yes, I believe that the Book of Proverbs, is exactly That. A Book that is written by God. That the principles in the Book are general guidelines. Of course with any passages of Scripture, we need to let the Scripture interpret the Scripture. And then we need to read It in light of the historical setting at the time. Some of that will answer your questions.

Now the question is whether using the rod or childrearing has changed a lot? If so, why? Some things stay the same, like "Do not give false testimony." Others are more culturally oriented. The boundary marker has been changed.

IF it is God's Wisdom, It would be smart to follow It. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom (Prov. 1:7)
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PietWowo
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« Reply #165 on: November 08, 2018, 09:28:50 pm »

A human being, deeply loved by God, just said that their parents would punish them to the point of bleeding and bruising and that it has impacted them deeply psychologically, and the response is asking for proof that this is bad from hermeneutics? This is where internet discussion breaks down. If a living, breathing human was in front of you telling you of their painful experience, I would hope anyone, regardless of belief system, could offer them compassion. If a human child's pain becomes merely an abstraction to step over in an argument you are out to win, there really needs to be some soul searching. I am not out to get into an argument, but I felt the need to stand up for my fellow human.
Again, Reaper, I am so sorry for your pain.

I'm not trying to win an argument. Winning an argument has no value. I can not respond to "Reaper." I'd have to hear both sides and then I would have to know what exactly happened.... I'm writing here not in a response to an experience, but asking the participants here on this forum to explain from the Word of God, why they feel the way they do. Thus far, Darthvader has come the closest.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #166 on: November 08, 2018, 09:30:10 pm »

@free in christ

I appreciate your kind words. We may differ on our views of God and the Bible but you are able to view the compassion of a situation and
act accordingly. As you said, this entire internet discussion breaks down partly in thanks to the keyboard warrior on the other end who
can't see much further than their computer monitor.  I didn't think that someone still affiliated with the GCx or Reliant organization of churches would actually have that much of an
under educated view on this situation. That is what I find most dangerous about this situation is that this person might actually procreate at some point
in time.

That will be the day.
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ReaperofGCM
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« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2018, 10:03:23 am »


Then you can believe fake news over the Word of God. I choose to believe God, Who created humans, including all children.
[/quote]


@puttputtwowow  Haha!! You just outed yourself as a Trump supporter! You probably believe it's ok to grab women by the pu**y
then huh? I have nothing left to say
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PietWowo
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« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2018, 10:59:16 am »


Then you can believe fake news over the Word of God. I choose to believe God, Who created humans, including all children.


@puttputtwowow  Haha!! You just outed yourself as a Trump supporter! You probably believe it's ok to grab women by the pu**y
then huh? I have nothing left to say
[/quote]

Did I use the name of President Trump before this sentence here?
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Linda
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« Reply #169 on: November 09, 2018, 12:09:04 pm »

Quote from: Des Moines Register, November 26, 1978
McCotter's sermons often are tape recorded and sold at the THEOS owned bookstore. The theories in one tape dealing with child rearing practices drew criticism from ISU child development professor Sedahlia Crase.

Crase says, "A student asked me to invite McCotter to speak to the class because she felt I wasn't presenting the Christian perspective on child-rearing. The student said McCotter was a nationally known authority on children, but I had never heard of him. That's when I learned of the tape. I was shocked when I heard it. He actually advocates bruising children."

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

Here is the link.
http://www.gcxweb.org/Articles/DSR-11-26-1978-b.aspx

I first saw this article when I ordered the microfiche of the Des Moines Register at the Southdale library in the Spring of 2005 after finding the date of the article in Marching to Zion. It made me sick. I had no idea and, in fact, had never heard the name Jim McCotter in the 10 years I attended. He was always referred to as "an early leader" who was heavily persecuted for his evangelistic boldness.

GC has NEVER distanced themselves from this teaching.

To my knowledge, they have never challenged any teaching of Jim McCotter. In fact, they have gone out of their way to attack those who challenge his teaching.

Jim McCotter said:

Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands NECESSARILY.

He said:

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

The leadership in GC never had the courage to stand up to take a stand against this awful, abusive teaching.

GCx leaders, this is a challenge to you. Speak out against the false and damaging teaching of your founder and hero.

GCx members, hold your leaders accountable.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:52:48 pm by Linda » Logged

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Janet Easson Martin
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« Reply #170 on: November 09, 2018, 05:46:48 pm »

Absolutely, Linda!  

Are those that have never denounced McCotter or his false teachings (including the abuse of children) the Christian Leaders you want to put yourself under?  This is a very serious matter for you to consider.  The health of your family may depend on it.  Bruising children into obedience or emotionally beating adult followers into submission does not produce a voluntary turning of the will, it results in a soul tormented with fear!

« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 05:48:22 pm by Janet Easson Martin » Logged

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PietWowo
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« Reply #171 on: November 09, 2018, 08:07:40 pm »

Quote from: Des Moines Register, November 26, 1978
McCotter's sermons often are tape recorded and sold at the THEOS owned bookstore. The theories in one tape dealing with child rearing practices drew criticism from ISU child development professor Sedahlia Crase.

Crase says, "A student asked me to invite McCotter to speak to the class because she felt I wasn't presenting the Christian perspective on child-rearing. The student said McCotter was a nationally known authority on children, but I had never heard of him. That's when I learned of the tape. I was shocked when I heard it. He actually advocates bruising children."

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

Here is the link.
http://www.gcxweb.org/Articles/DSR-11-26-1978-b.aspx

I first saw this article when I ordered the microfiche of the Des Moines Register at the Southdale library in the Spring of 2005 after finding the date of the article in Marching to Zion. It made me sick. I had no idea and, in fact, had never heard the name Jim McCotter in the 10 years I attended. He was always referred to as "an early leader" who was heavily persecuted for his evangelistic boldness.

GC has NEVER distanced themselves from this teaching.

To my knowledge, they have never challenged any teaching of Jim McCotter. In fact, they have gone out of their way to attack those who challenge his teaching.

Jim McCotter said:

Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands NECESSARILY.

He said:

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

The leadership in GC never had the courage to stand up to take a stand against this awful, abusive teaching.

GCx leaders, this is a challenge to you. Speak out against the false and damaging teaching of your founder and hero.

GCx members, hold your leaders accountable.

So, It doesn't mean what Jim McCotter says It means. But what does It mean and why do you think that that would be the correct interpretation?
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Linda
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« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2018, 09:08:34 pm »

Quote from: Pietwowo
So, It doesn't mean what Jim McCotter says It means. But what does It mean and why do you think that that would be the correct interpretation?
Huh?
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PietWowo
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« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2018, 10:27:09 pm »

Quote from: Pietwowo
So, It doesn't mean what Jim McCotter says It means. But what does It mean and why do you think that that would be the correct interpretation?
Huh?

You shared why you didn't think that the passage in Proverbs about blows means what Jim McCotter said it meant. So, my question is if you can interpret that passage for us. It says it in the Scriptures, so what do you think It means? Not, what do you think It doesn't mean.
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Linda
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« Reply #174 on: November 10, 2018, 08:01:56 am »

Quote from: Pietwowo
You shared why you didn't think that the passage in Proverbs about blows means what Jim McCotter said it meant. So, my question is if you can interpret that passage for us. It says it in the Scriptures, so what do you think It means? Not, what do you think It doesn't mean.

I don’t recall mentioning Proverbs. When did I do that?

I will say, however, that I’m pretty sure Proverbs doesn’t say children should be spanked till they are black and blue to clean the evil from them. Nor does it say there might be blood, but not NECESSARILY.
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PietWowo
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« Reply #175 on: December 24, 2018, 08:11:40 pm »

Quote from: Des Moines Register, November 26, 1978
McCotter's sermons often are tape recorded and sold at the THEOS owned bookstore. The theories in one tape dealing with child rearing practices drew criticism from ISU child development professor Sedahlia Crase.

Crase says, "A student asked me to invite McCotter to speak to the class because she felt I wasn't presenting the Christian perspective on child-rearing. The student said McCotter was a nationally known authority on children, but I had never heard of him. That's when I learned of the tape. I was shocked when I heard it. He actually advocates bruising children."

Part of the taped sermon was based on Proverbs 20:30, which McCotter translates as, "Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts."

On the tape, McCotter says, "When you discipline, this verse indicates, as others do, that you want to do it so it wounds. Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands necessarily. It doesn't mean that you have a child 'wounding' like he has a broken leg."

McCotter added in his taped sermon that this means you have been severe enough that the child's attitude at that point has been reversed.

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

Here is the link.
http://www.gcxweb.org/Articles/DSR-11-26-1978-b.aspx

I first saw this article when I ordered the microfiche of the Des Moines Register at the Southdale library in the Spring of 2005 after finding the date of the article in Marching to Zion. It made me sick. I had no idea and, in fact, had never heard the name Jim McCotter in the 10 years I attended. He was always referred to as "an early leader" who was heavily persecuted for his evangelistic boldness.

GC has NEVER distanced themselves from this teaching.

To my knowledge, they have never challenged any teaching of Jim McCotter. In fact, they have gone out of their way to attack those who challenge his teaching.

Jim McCotter said:

Now, when you say 'wounds,' it doesn't mean that you have a bloody mess on your hands NECESSARILY.

He said:

"And he may, and often will be, black and blue," McCotter continued. "My children have been many times. And it cleans evil from them."

The leadership in GC never had the courage to stand up to take a stand against this awful, abusive teaching.

GCx leaders, this is a challenge to you. Speak out against the false and damaging teaching of your founder and hero.

GCx members, hold your leaders accountable.

Ok, Linda, you have just talked about what spanking isn't. Now, what do you think that Passage is teaching? Not what It is not teaching, but what is It teaching. Then what hermeneutics did you use to come up with that particular interpretation?
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PietWowo
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« Reply #176 on: December 24, 2018, 08:13:30 pm »

Quote from: Pietwowo
You shared why you didn't think that the passage in Proverbs about blows means what Jim McCotter said it meant. So, my question is if you can interpret that passage for us. It says it in the Scriptures, so what do you think It means? Not, what do you think It doesn't mean.

I don’t recall mentioning Proverbs. When did I do that?

I will say, however, that I’m pretty sure Proverbs doesn’t say children should be spanked till they are black and blue to clean the evil from them. Nor does it say there might be blood, but not NECESSARILY.

You quoted Proverbs 22:30. What does It mean? Not, what does It not mean.
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Linda
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« Reply #177 on: December 26, 2018, 08:09:36 am »

Hey, PW, the Proverbs verse was a quote from an article about McCotter in the Des Moines Register in 1978.

Why don’t you ask McCotter about what “hermeneutics” he used to come up with his “Blows means beating a kid till they are black and blue, but don’t have broken bones (necessarily)” interpretation”? We’d all love to know.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 03:26:06 pm by Linda » Logged

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PietWowo
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« Reply #178 on: December 26, 2018, 09:08:45 am »

Hey, PW, the Proverbs verses wear a quote from an article about McCotter in the Des Moines Register in 1978.

Why don’t you ask McCotter about what “hermeneutics” he used to come up with his “Blows means beating a kid till they are black and blue, but don’t have broken bones (necessarily)” interpretation”? We’d all love to know.

So, then you're not going to interpret that passage.... Matt. 5:17-19
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Linda
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« Reply #179 on: December 26, 2018, 09:33:47 am »

You are correct. I will not be interpreting Matthew 5:17-19 for you.

I won’t be interpreting Proverbs 22:30 either.

See Matthew 7:6.
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